Shannon White, Founder and Executive Director of GracetoChange, joins Mark to share a view into the world of addiction or alcoholism in family law as a Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor. Listen as she shares her experiences with divorce and child custody proceedings and outcomes seen first-hand. From judges’ attitudes towards addicts and alcoholics to how often a chemically dependent person is awarded custody of (or visitation rights to) their children.
Mark Scroggins
Hey folks, Mark Scroggins with Scroggins Law Group, and we are back for another episode of the reclamation transformation. And today we have a very good friend of mine, Shannon White, who, golly, Moses, we have known each other since high school. And I’m not going to give anybody the date five years ago. That’s right, five years ago. Yeah, we’re both accelerated through through school. So anyway, thank you for joining us today.
Shannon White
Thank you for having me. It’s great fun.
Mark Scroggins
You bet. Well, Shannon is the executive director of a group called Grace to change that I am on the board. That is one of the things I’m very, very proud of. But can you explain a little bit about what brace to change is and what y’all do? Because I think the services that are offered to those that can’t afford to pay, you know, 25 $50,000 to go to treatment is an underserved area. And so the work y’all do is just phenomenal.
Shannon White
Well, I’ll tell you, it’s super fun. So Grace to change has been around for I think we’re on our 12th year in May, it’ll be our 12th year. And we started off as a very unsuccessful for profit, because I wanted to do this and I wanted to work for the underserved population. And my issue was, as soon as people got to my door, I would say, Okay, you need treatment, you can’t afford it, I’ll just give it to you, right. And then about eight, six or eight years ago, the county made a shift to a nonprofit model, so they could utilize the funding from life path, they switch and when you say the county, you’re talking about Collin County, so Collin County chose to go from Northstar to life paths. So life path became the local behavioral health authority. And in order to utilize county funds that were funneled through life path, we had to become a nonprofit. So we made the decision to do that, which I didn’t know anything about. But from the very beginning, my passion was helping the people who are underserved, right. And so now we are one of two nonprofits in Collin County that work with this population. And we are one of two outpatient treatment centers that work with Child Protective Services. Wow. So we are outpatient substance abuse treatment. So they come three nights a week to us for group, and then they do individual counseling with us once a week for their program.
Mark Scroggins
Let me ask you, I mean, how did you I know this story, but how, how did you get this passion for wanting to start this because as as you know, it’s not something it’s not a business where you’re gonna go into and say, Gosh, I’m gonna get rich, right doing this not in a not for profit, right now serving the people that y’all are serving that are unserved for a reason.
Shannon White
Yep. So I got sober 15 years ago. So when I got sober, I was compelled to elementary school teacher before I taught for 15 years. So when I got sober, I really, it’s so drastically changed my life, right? That I said, I want to go back in and I want to do this, and I want to help other people. So I went back to school and got a counseling degree to become a licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, and started working. Now the irony for me was I my addiction didn’t take me into the legal system. I, you know, as they like to say, I was somewhat of a high bottom drunk, my trauma, was it terrible, not to the people that loved me, they would say different, probably, but comparatively. And so what i My goal in the beginning was just to help really literally other women who wanted to get sober, that didn’t have legal issues. And so, you know, ironically, my life took a different path. And I began working in the court system in the legal system, and just fell in love with the intersection between the legal system and recovery. And so most of my people are in jail or come out of jail or Child Protective Services, and just absolutely love it.
Mark Scroggins
Well, I think that’s, you know, I’m glad that you just mentioned are in jail or just coming out of jail. And so the services that that grace to change provides, I think, are so incredibly important, because otherwise, you’ve got an opportunity to get someone out of the legal system. Yep. Or you get the opportunity for someone to, you know, give up their amateur status and go pro right, come locked up, off and on for our, for the remainder of their lives.
Shannon White
And I think what I what I got passionate about was the expense to the county and to taxpayers. When we don’t reset, we don’t help these people and they were supervised, right. So it you know, my program is a drop in the bucket compared it’s similar to less than 30 days in Collin County Jail, to get treatment that you need, and we all know that you don’t get treatment in jail. Right. So and, you know, not to mention the attorneys fees, court appointed attorneys are in foster care, kids in foster care. I mean, it’s just an exorbitant cost to the county that people don’t want to talk about, right? Because it’s not I’m not in my backyard.
Mark Scroggins
Well, so I want to talk a little bit about, you know, where y’all are involved in the legal system. Because, as you know, with being a board certified family lawyer, I have got drug and alcohol issues, I bet probably in 50 to 70% of my cases that at any one time, and so it plays such a huge, huge piece. And one of the things that I see is you get the person who is an addict or alcoholic, and they are so overwrought with guilt. And they come in with the, you know, well, I know that I’m never gonna get to see my kids again. And it’s like, that’s total bullshit. Yeah, unless you decide that you don’t want to see your kids, you’re going to be able to see your kid. So that’s like, you know, an awakening, but you still have to overcome this shame and guilt that people feel. And you know, and then you see it from the other side, too, which is like he or she did X, Y, and Z, so they should never be around. That’s not what the law is in the state of Texas, if you can get sober, stay sober. You know, the worst that’s going to happen to you is having a step up plan, and you know, your whole life can change. And, you know, the life that you have with those children will change dramatically as well. But were usually for the better. Exactly, yeah. So. So what is your experience? When you said that you come in, you know, into the court system? What kind of role are you typically playing?
Shannon White
So it depends on depends on the situation. But a lot of times I testify. So I have been around for a long time doing this. And I am, I am, I was much more naive. In the beginning, I will say that I’ve played some people say hard and some people just say more knowledge. But I am absolutely more than willing to go into a legal proceeding and testify on someone’s behalf, that, you know, I will never be on the cover of many magazines, not something that I charge for because I believe if they’ve put the hard work in right, then I’m willing to go in and support them. So I’ve testified in divorce hearings, child custody hearings, obviously, DWI drug charges, I’ve kind of run the gamut on those. But I think it’s really important to have an advocate that that understands addiction, you know, the very premise of addiction is you do things against your moral compass, right. And so the symptoms that are outward to everybody else’s are repulsive, in some cases, yeah. But they’re not who the person is, there’s what the person has done. And so when someone’s willing to do the hard work and make the changes, I want to be an advocate up at the front with them saying they’ve really done the work, right. And an AI, everyone who knows me knows I’m not going to lie for you. Right. So well. And
Mark Scroggins
that’s hugely important. Because, you know, I remember a little bit ago when I first started practicing law, almighty, actually, just to be blatantly honest, May 7 will be 30 years, and it’s hard for me to believe that. But, you know, one of the things when somebody comes in, and there is an issue of alcohol, okay, or drug addiction, right? Whether it is the client is telling me that, hey, I’ve got this problem, and how do we overcome it? Or that the other side is going to be making this allegation? You know, something that I will typically do is I will want a drug and alcohol evaluation run by an expert who can go in and look at the situation. So that’s something that you do
Shannon White
We do. We do a lot of those, and we do them for run the gamut. So attorneys send people to us for an evaluation. CPS sends people to us for an evaluation probation, since we will do an evaluation. And our evaluation basically says, does a person need treatment? And if so, at what level? Right, so do they need inpatient? Do they need detox? Do they need outpatient? Or is their disease in remission they haven’t used in six months. So based on self report, they don’t have a need for treatment at that time.
Mark Scroggins
Even you get some part of so I use it for for two reasons. Okay. You know, one, I want to get someone to help that they need. Yes, thank you for that if they need it. Yeah. But conversely, my experience in divorce proceedings or any child custody proceedings, is you know, when there is a, a high level of acrimony. It turns into, you know, people throwing shit at each other. And so there are allegations that let’s just say sometimes the veracity of which could be called into question, right. So there are plenty of times where I’m having a drug and alcohol evaluation performed to see is the person actually an alcoholic or a drug addict? Right. So what is your experience been in in that regard, and then going in and testifying and the you know how receptive the courts are in Collin County to that
Shannon White
Collin County, one of the things that they’ve done is I feel like they’ve really educated the judges on substance abuse. I was actually in a courtroom the other day, in a custody situation, I didn’t have to testify, but and the judge actually called out the attorney, because they were making allegations that the person was an addict and could never quit. And the judge actually said, Wait, you said two different things. If they’re truly an addict, they can’t quit for the short period of time, and I wanted to stand up and cheer. I know, she saw me shaking my head and, and approval. So I think they’ve done a good job of understanding addiction, and really paying attention and you know, providing grace, you know, they, they genuinely want people to be successful. And so when everybody works together, and there’s a high level of accountability, and a lot of love, which is what we get to give right, then I think they’re receptive to giving people their children back giving, you know, having people get custody of their children and not being totally removed from their lives. Right. But the whoever’s in the courtroom has to do the hard work. Right, which we know is hard.
Mark Scroggins
Well, and I’m glad and I think the the judge you were talking about was Angela Tucker. Shout out to Angela Tucker. She was fabulous, doing a great job on that. But one of the things I wanted to expand on a little bit is there seems to be there are a lot of misunderstandings about drug abuse and alcohol abuse, and where you talk about, you know, if someone doesn’t use or drink for a period of time, what that actually means. So being a licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, and from a personal standpoint, right, having experience in this regard, can you expand on that a little bit and explain to folks what does that mean if somebody doesn’t drink or doesn’t use for a significant period of time, right.
Shannon White
So when we do an evaluation, a qualification for treatment is, you know, usually inpatient is used within five to 10 days, right? Outpatient is usually a 30 day period. We run into sticky situations when someone has a second or a third DWI. And they say, Well, I haven’t had a drink since I was arrested. Well, may or may not be true. And there’s oftentimes that we will recommend treatment for someone who says I haven’t had a drink in three months. But I’ve had three significant continued use despite negative consequences. Right. So it is frustrating because it is all self report. So we do do drug testing, and we do a pen and pencil thing, a test and but we actually interview them for usually 30 to 45 minutes. One of the things I love about grace to change is we’ve got a heroin addict, we’ve got a meth addicts, we’ve got someone who does all the drugs, we’ve got an alcoholic. So we usually line you up with whoever has your drug of choice. Right. So it’s hard to be awesome, right?
Mark Scroggins
I think that’s really important. Because there’s a difference between someone who is your garden variety alcoholic, and someone who was smoking crack or doing meth.
Shannon White
Absolutely.
Mark Scroggins
So you know, having commonality and walking that same path, I think is is incredibly important.
Shannon White
It is frustrating, because you hear people go get an evaluation, and it’s a pen and paper test, right? They used to have, oh, I can’t even think what it’s called. There used to be a test that you could do. And it you literally bubbled in the sheets. It was a scantron that you put over the top of it, and you had no conversation and people that had maybe once or twice had the same test, figured out how to lie on it, of course. And so based on that, they would say, Oh, you don’t need treatment. And that was always very frustrating. To me. There are very specific things that document treatment, right. But there are a lot of things that are extraneous, you know, if you’ve got a third DWI, and you’ve never had any type of substance abuse treatment, then chances are I’m going to say, hey, you need to do a little something. Right? Right. Even though you’ve told me you haven’t had a drink in six months, right? And just so as you’re proactive about whatever.
Mark Scroggins
So you can have alcoholism rears its ugly head in so many different forms and fashions. You have somebody who is the daily drinker, you can have somebody who’s a binge drinker, right. And sometimes depending on where they are in the process, it can be any one of those at different times.
Shannon White
Right and you know, it. People like to say, when the legal system gets involved, that I’m good and I’m clean. For most of the people that we work with the hardcore addicts and alcoholics, they they wrap themselves out over time, right. So you know, they can tell a certain story, but then over time when they come back, you know, it you can’t put it at bay by just choosing not to do it.
Mark Scroggins
Right. So I can you know, tell you about a recent case that that I had where you know, other side is making out Allegations of alcoholism. You know, he can’t control himself and all of this stuff. And so we were in Dallas County and shout out to judge Diaz doing a really good job on this. But she ordered. She ordered a sober link on both parties. Okay. And for a period of 30 days, and what you see a lot of times is where sober link will be ordered just during periods of possession, right. But if you really want to check and see if somebody is alcoholic, absolutely make it all day, every day for a period of 30 days. Right. You know, and so through the end of this, nobody has had any drinking. So that kind of nullifies those allegations are that’s, that’s my read. And I think that’s what a lot of judges see. Is that Yeah, an accurate read?
Shannon White
Yes, it absolutely is. And I think that the part that’s so tricky, is when a judge orders there, we went through a phase where the judge was judges were ordering scram devices for everyone.
Mark Scroggins
Can you explain what that is?
Shannon White
So a SCRAM device is ankle monitor that you put on that detects alcohol at any given time, right? Through the sweat in your body, right, it is a great detector for people. But what it doesn’t do is prevent you from driving your car, like the deep lung device does in the car. And so, you know, us alcoholics are were MacGyver, right? So they had a deep lung device in your car that you have to blow into in order to start your car. While alcoholics figured out if I can have my kid in the backseat blow into my deep lung device, then I can start my car. Well, now there’s a camera Exactly. And so you can’t have the camera. So then they also figure out well, I’ll get a beater car. So I’m going to get another car to drive without the deep lung device in it. I’m going to drive that on the weekends, right? And so we tell everybody that gets at start your car every day, make sure you start your car every day, because there needs to be documentation that you’re doing what you’re supposed to be doing. Right. You know, I feel like people can sometimes stop for 30 days, I do feel like they can do that. Right. So people need a longer period of time of the checking. But it’s, you know, CyberLink works. Yeah, it does work.
Mark Scroggins
So, you know, it’s, it’s interesting. One of the things that I wanted to ask you about is, you know, so often we see people that are, you know, dual addicted. And so the biggest one that I tend to see is depression. You know, depression seems to be a big piece right of this. And so people self medicate a lot of the time to try to, you know, you get the dopamine or the serotonin releases, and all of a sudden I feel better. But then you know, when you don’t, you’re right.
Shannon White
We go back to what works is our alcohol.
Mark Scroggins
Exactly, yeah. So Do y’all refer people out to a psychiatrist? For those people that you think need medication management? Absolutely.
Shannon White
One of the beautiful things that happens in Collin County is Life Path provides mental health and substance abuse treatment free if you qualify. So they actually have psychiatrists on staff at life paths that we can use for CO occurring disorder clients, they can get put on medication. And again, it’s at no charge to them if they qualify. Right. And so that’s wonderfully helpful. We do have some psychiatrists that we send people to addiction specialists that we love. Because I do think that’s a big issue.
Mark Scroggins
Absolutely. So and I also wanted to clarify your treatment is not just for adults, but a large number of adolescents that yall treat.
Shannon White
We have a separate adolescent program now and we are the only one in Collin County that works with adolescents that utilizes the Collin County funding. And so and we are in person, and we have a wonderful therapist, Bonnie Donaldson, who does an incredible job with our adolescents. I can I can tell you, they all come in. And there was a time that she texts and she texts about 720 groups over at usually 657. And she said, it’s going to be a little bit they want to stay and play a card game with me again, these are high school kids that want to stay with their therapist and play another card game or they go home. Yeah, so she does just an incredible job. And and again, that funding for adolescence is can be free through the county we have we can utilize that. We also take Medicaid for our adolescents. So anybody that has Medicaid can qualify.
Mark Scroggins
You know, I think that is so important because one of the something that is very sad to me, is the in child custody matters whether it’s coming out of a divorce or just what we refer to as a SAPCR or, so a suit affecting parent-child relationship, just like child custody. Thinking about that, but, you know, people get confused over terminology that is used in child custody cases. So when we talk, the presumption in Texas is that parents should be You name joint managing conservator. Okay. And they think that that means a lot of people think that that means, you know, 5050 5050 possession and access and that doesn’t have anything to do with it actually. Right. Conservatorship is all talking about the rights and duties that you have to make parenting decisions. Right, right. So those the big ones out there are the right to make decisions on non emergent, medical or emergent or invasive medical procedures, but also to make psychiatric and psychological decisions for the children and the right to make educational decisions. And so what I see an awful lot of the time is, you get this vortex, for lack of a better way of putting it where all of those kind of come together. And so where I see, let’s say that you’ve got a child that has a drug or alcohol problem, or let’s say that you’ve got a kiddo that’s got a DD ADHD problems, and so you’re getting something from the school that is saying, Hey, little Johnny, you know, needs to be put on some medications, because he’s running laps around, you know, around the classroom, and I can’t teach him or anybody else while that is happening, right? And unfortunately, you see parents that want to argue, because one says, Hey, we ought to get them on medication. And the other says, Oh, well, if he or she wants that, you know, I can’t agree to that. Right. You know, because they’re the child suffers. Exactly. Yeah. You know, not to mention, I mean, the child suffers in so many different areas. And that’s really a hotbed I think, for dispute on, you know, do you treat someone for a DD and ADHD because, you know, we have a history of, boy, the pharmaceutical companies make a freakin mint off of everything. And it’s super easy to just throw shit at someone, when maybe they don’t need it, maybe they need a little extra attention. But there are plenty of times when someone really really needs it. Right. So, but I also see that with, you know, different medication that might be important for adolescents. And that’s a hard one, in and of itself. Yeah, if you’ve got some a kid that needs depression meds, the effects of those medications on an adult and an adolescent are vastly different.
Shannon White
And I think that’s the, that’s the issue. So back to what you were saying, Yeah, joint conservatorship, or what’s the one you want? If you’re a parent, you want to joint conservatorship or managing or what is it?
Mark Scroggins
So there are different there are different ones. Okay. So the presumption in Texas is that parents should be joint managing conservators of their kids. The other options are that someone could be named. So managing conservator, someone could be named possessory, conservator or someone could not be named a conservator at all. So if you’re not named a conservator at all, that’s pretty rough. There are a lot of bad facts out there. And either the judge or the jury made a really difficult decision in doing that, or they made the wrong decision. And that’s something that can be righted on, on appeal. Okay. So when somebody is named sole-managing conservator, those rights and duties that I was talking about, you know, invasive medical procedures, psychological decision, psychiatric decisions, educational decisions that are there others, but they don’t come into play as much. So I don’t want to really waste any time talking about, but it means that that person has the exclusive right to make those decisions. I should mention, the biggest of all of those is the exclusive right to determine the primary domicile of the child or children. So that just means if the kids live 51% of the time or greater with you. So when you hear someone say I’m primary, that’s all that means, okay? Okay. It doesn’t mean that they’re the best parent or anything like that. It just means that the children live primarily with them. So when someone’s soul, and they’ve got all those exclusive, it’s the same thing with the domicile issue. But additionally, there isn’t going to be a geographic restriction. So if you think somebody is named soul, and they want to move up to Seattle, bye, bye. You know, they can do that. And so that’s a large impact, because you see that with people that you know, let’s just talk about traditional gender roles. So let’s say wife is from Boston and follows husband to Dallas, and they get a divorce and she doesn’t have any of her support system right here, a Dad’s got really, really bad facts that would allow mom to get so managing. So that’s not something that happens very often. It happens, but you’ve got to have bad facts. The biggest one is where you have somebody that has been either a conviction for family violence, or the district court finds that there has been family violence within two years. And so by statute, the court cannot name the party’s joint managing conservators.
Shannon White
Oh, I didn’t realize if you have an assault, family violence, you cannot be..
Mark Scroggins
Within two years, so not just a conviction but let’s say what happens in a lot of these cases now is the victim, let’s say has been stuck in an abusive relationship. And so they do what they do most frequently, and they don’t want to press charges. That’s where you hear. The district attorney is saying, Well, okay, that’s great, but we’re still going to pick it up. Right. So if that court prosecutes it, and they find the defendant guilty of family violence, and it is alleged and brought forth during a divorce proceeding or a child custody proceeding, and that has happened within two years, the court has to name someone’s soul. Okay.
SHANNON WHITE
Wow, that is fascinating. Yeah. So
Mark Scroggins
That’s a big, big deal that is out there. And that’s one of the reasons that that is such a big fight. Not to mention, it also just some other things in the context of a divorce. So I don’t know if you know this or not, but probably not Texas doesn’t have alimony. Okay, Texas hat. You can have contractual alimony. Okay. But Texas doesn’t a court can award alimony, right, a court can award what is called spousal maintenance, okay, which is very similar. But a court can increase it or decrease it based on a series of facts. And I don’t want to bore everybody to tears with all of that. But the impact of a family violence conviction or a finding of family violence, is that a court can award spousal maintenance, where they wouldn’t be entitled to it otherwise. So there are a whole family violence is the big caveat on everything. And it’s why it is I think there are some attorneys that tried to get a funding of family violence, where it’s absolutely unwarranted because of the advantages that it plays in divorce, and obviously plays into the division of community property, but also the impact that it has on child custody. I mean, because that’s a checkmate, right?
SHANNON WHITE
Well, and think about it, so any, most alcoholics have gotten in a good bar fight. So you know that that aggressiveness comes out and with substance use, and so we see a lot of that.
Mark Scroggins
So let’s talk about like, what you just what you just mentioned, so let’s say that somebody’s had a number of bar fights. Okay. And then there’s an allegation that is made by you know, the wife against the husband that there has been family violence in the marriage, but the police have never been called. I’ve never been any witnesses to this outside. But you’ve got a he said, she said, and you’ve got these other convictions that can be mentioned. You know, what do you think the outcome is on that a lot of time, and now we’ve got you know, in, in Texas judges are elected, which is not the way it is in a lot of other states where they are appointed. Right. And so, you know, so you have politics that are brought in, and most judges aren’t looking to just serve a single term. They’re looking to seeing, you know, to serve multiple terms, so no judge wants to have their picture up on the nightly news right now, hey, they didn’t put this in place. And this guy went out and killed his wife. Yep. Were you hear about that? Yeah. Do you really watch the news? Multiple times during, you know, during the year, we had one not too long ago. I think it came out of Southlake where they got done with a mediation. I don’t think they got things resolved. Dad pulls up next to wife at a stoplight and shoots and kills her. I know it’s crazy. I mean, what people do is insane.
SHANNON WHITE
Yeah. And I think it’s, you know, one of the things that you and I’ve talked about before is people need to have representation, because just in this short period of time, I’ve been not married and I haven’t gone through a divorce. But, you know, you learn things that I mean, all of those things are super important to the people that I work with. You know, this is why you say stay away, don’t engage. Don’t do any of those things because the deposition of truth is basically a lot of times we’ll all that they need. That’s right. And I like what you’ve said bad facts, right? I’m going to use that term, because bad facts are things that we can’t dispute.
Mark Scroggins
That’s right. Well, I don’t want to say that you can’t dispute bad facts, but there are things that are out there. And the other thing is, like what we were talking about a little bit ago. You know, just because you have bad facts doesn’t mean it’s a checkmate. Let’s say that there has been a finding of family violence. Okay. And the family violence is just against this passage, just but it doesn’t include the children. Does that mean that you’re not going to have a relationship with your children that you’re not going to have possession and access of your children? No, it absolutely does not mean that now, doesn’t mean you’re going to have to go through a BIT Program, which is for those that don’t know, battery intervention and prevention program, right. So yeah, they’re probably going to have to do that. And they’re going to be hoops that that person has to jump through, right. But just because someone’s sole-managing and someone’s possessory, it doesn’t mean that they’re not going to have a standard possession order, which is what is the presumption that is in the best interest of the kid? Right? Okay. So for those out there that don’t know what that is, you know, that’s basically the the first, third and fifth weekend. So to make it easier to digest, when you think about someone having basically every other weekend, typically, that’s going to be kind of a standard possession order. It’s different than every other weekend. But that’s easier for me to get across, right. And so where you’ve got alternating holidays, and a big chunk during the summer, right, and stuff like that. So even if you’re possessory conservator, you’re still going to have that most likely, you might have to go through some step ups, there might have been some counseling that was ordered, there might have been a child-custody evaluation that was performed that recommended certain things, but as long as you, you know, follow what those recommendations are. It’s kinda like, you know, jumping out of a plane I recommend. Right, you don’t have to write you know, I strongly recommend it, right. It’s the same thing here.
SHANNON WHITE
Yeah. And one of the things that we do at Grace to change is because I fully to my core, understand the ups and downs of recovery, right? So we give free aftercare for life.
Mark Scroggins
That’s so big, it’s, it’s so big.
Shannon White
They can come back and come to a group, we do reduce rates on individual counseling, but we do it for a reason. So if somebody comes to me in the beginning of their family, custody situation, or criminal case, they can start, they can do our program, which is 12 weeks, but then they can come back and stay in contact with us once a week for as long as they want to. Or they can come three times a week, we had a man that came three times a week for eight years, oh my gosh, because he had a choice to go to AAA or to go to treatment. Right, his probation officer allowed him to come to us. So instead of doing AAA, he came to us.
Mark Scroggins
That speaks really loudly about the connection that your clients patients, you know, feel with grace to change, which, you know, I can tell you based on my experience, and a lot of my clients experience, that’s not typical.
SHANNON WHITE
No, and I think I’ll say it because it happened today. We lost a client this morning. So I found out on the way over here that we lost a client, and it’s a client that we’ve been in contact with for eight years. And, you know, we haven’t said anything but fentanyl is deadly. Right. Now,
Mark Scroggins
Let’s talk about that.
SHANNON WHITE
Let’s do it, because it is in this specific instance, we you know, obviously they just pronounced him dead at 130 last night, so we’re not 100% Sure. But it does appear that it was a one hit wonder relapse. And so what we found it grace to change. We’re drug testing for fentanyl. Now, what we found is it’s literally in everything. So we’ve tested people that said, Oh, I’ve only smoked weed.
Mark Scroggins
Let me back up for just a second when you said it’s literally everything and you’re not talking about prescription meds that somebody actually gets from a pharmacy.
Shannon White
Correct.
Mark Scroggins
But everything else
Shannon White
Any pill that you buy on the street, there are any any illicit substance basically now, right? So marijuana, alcohol, Xanax, Percocet. Percocets they don’t even make perk 30s anymore. So if you’re taking a perk 30 You’re absolutely taking fentanyl. Oh my god. So and, and it’s different. So in this case with this client last night, I’m making a an educated summation, right? But my hunch is he went back and did his drug of choice. And it had either been too long since he had done it and his body wasn’t ready for the amount that he did. Or it was laced with fentanyl. And my hunch is we’re gonna find out it was laced with fentanyl.
Mark Scroggins
Yeah, it’s amazing because that is such a you know, there was the thing was it at RL Turner with A house that was just across the street, they had fentanyl in everything. And you know, so all you have to do is pick up the paper and read stuff. And they’re talking about the national epidemic of fentanyl, because it’s so damn cheap. And then the study that, you know, someone thinks they’re buying pills off the street, and so they’re thinking they’re getting pharmaceutical grade. But all these people have to do is go out and they buy a pill press right, they go out there and buy a specific dye that is generally the color of whatever that pill is. And it can be 100%, fentanyl. And I mean, these are people that have absolutely no grounding in morality, because it’s well, fentanyl is cheapest. And we can make it look like this and we can sell it for you know, this is what the return on our investment.
Shannon White
Yes. And the legal system is now trying to make it a homicide if you are dealing with and you know, you’re dealing phenol even if you don’t know, and someone dies of it. So and I think the issue with people have is it’s not this isn’t adults making adult decisions. We buried a 16 year old like four months ago, who had a fentanyl overdose. And that was the only drug in his system. And so you think you’re taking all these other things and you die. We have a client that’s on a Thursday, it’s Mike land. And he right now he lost his son to a fentanyl overdose. And he is on bike tours. Do a national parks are represented and his son took to perk 30s. And the only thing in his system was fentanyl. And he died sitting up in his chair. And Mike is out trying to raise awareness. So, you know, gone are the days where everything is safe. I mean, this is literally killing people all the time.
Mark Scroggins
That’s so incredibly sad. And you know, for those kids that it’s like, Hey, this is cheap. And I’m looking for, you know, an easy, fun, high kind of deal. It goes from euphoria to it’s over.
Shannon White
Yep. And we’re hearing now in the in your aspect of it in family law cases. Right. So there’s babies that are that are dying. Now. fentanyl overdoses. And it’s because it’s transdermal. So you touch it, and it gets into a baby’s skin. And so parents are in custody battles right now where both of them are high on fentanyl and the baby tests positive and dies.
Mark Scroggins
I have not experienced that..
Shannon White
Sadly, I think you will I mean, I really do. Because we’ve experienced in our office, people who have said My husband was dealing, I haven’t done it the baby test positive. So you pray the baby test positive in their hair when they’re alive. Right.
Mark Scroggins
That’s so scary.
Shannon White
It is so scary.
Mark Scroggins
I want to back up and talk about one thing that you you mentioned a little bit ago with the drug testing, because typically, whether it’s been ordered by the court or not, I am going to if I’m going to have someone undergo a drug and alcohol evaluation, I’m going to want that person tested. And most evaluators are going to order it anyway. But you mentioned that you’ve got some new testing abilities we do add that are incredibly important. So can you elaborate on that a little bit?
SHANNON WHITE
You bet. So people do have what’s called a point of contact test where you go and you pee in a cup, right? And then you use a dip test and it tells an initial positive or negative, right. What that doesn’t do is it doesn’t test for levels of the substance in their system. So when you get a particular substance, correct, okay, so it just says positive, ragged, right? So we do a 12 panel, we do alcohol with alcohol, we test for ETG.
Mark Scroggins
Can you say when you start talking about a 12 panel, can you explain what that is?
Shannon White
So the 12 panel means it tests for 12 different drugs. Okay. And so from THC to opiates to methadone to suboxone we’ve been offering so it tests for cocaine tests for the 12 prominent things, okay, not alcohol, okay, then we do a separate alcohol test. And in our alcohol test, it’s what tests for ETG? Which is ethyl glutamate, smart, smart something, but it’s the enzyme that your liver excretes. Okay, so and that goes actually about three days. Okay, so we can do all of that and a point of contact test. Okay, what probation does is they have an observed test. So someone observes them taking the test, so they can’t bring fake urine or whatever, right? And then they send it off to a lab, right. And so there is an initial screening that’s done by the lab tells positive or negative, and they have certain cut offs for different substances that say, if you’ve got 500 milligrams of cocaine in your system, anything above 500 And you’re going to be positive. Okay, so we’ve hooked up with Millennium drug testing, okay. And they are the CDC is their CDC, number one people. And part of the reason I wanted to do this is it is a more expensive test, but we test them in house, we can do a dip test on them. So we’re going to have an initial screening of whether they’re positive or negative for immediate purposes, right. If someone tests positive for fentanyl, chances are I’m going to refer him to a hospital. Absolutely. So we can do that still. Then we send it to the lab. AB, and it is it’s actually got deeper cut offs. So it’ll test more than probations test will.
Mark Scroggins
So when you say deeper, you’re talking to actually a lower right.
Shannon White
So cocaine was 500, at on a probation test than ours is like 100. So in many cases, it’s going to catch even the smallest amount of a substance in someone’s system, it can actually differentiate when it does the testing between delta A delta nine, delta 10, and marijuana.
Mark Scroggins
So that’s something that I wanted to delve into a little bit more, because there are a lot of these tests that while it’s my understanding that delta eight, nine and 10, at least currently, Right are legal..
Shannon White
nine is not, 8 and 10 are, nine is not.
Mark Scroggins
Okay, so that makes it all very interesting because it’s an over the counter substance that you can get. And it’s not, it’s not illegal, but it’s showing up as a positive on marijuana a lot of the time, so. So you will have the ability to differentiate between those?
Shannon White
This test will absolutely do that. And I think it’s really important, you know, especially with our adolescents, you know, Delta eight, its legal myths, we should be able to do it all the while you’re still not old enough, it’s a moot point. But it absolutely tests positive. So we’ve got adults that are heroin or whatever, and they’ve stopped for probation, but they go in by delta eight, because they can get it at the over the counter stores. And they test positive for marijuana, and it’s a violation of their probation.
Mark Scroggins
What is your what is your opinion For what it’s worth on Delta eight, or I hadn’t heard of delta 10 frankly, or delta nine for that, for that matter. But you see delta A that, you know, I don’t want to say 711? Because I don’t think that’s right, but Right, all the various mom and pop stores that, you know, they got it selling over the counter. And so what’s your thought on it?
Shannon White
I mean, I think I think if you use it appropriately, I mean, I do think we have a dear friend who owns a store, and they actually sell that there you know, they’ve taken all the precautions, I put it in the back, they listened to when we talked about it, you know, we don’t want it in front, because you’re going to put delta ate up and all of our kids are going to try to race it and do it. Right. So they’ve taken the precautions with it, I think, you know, it’s kind of the same philosophy with near beer. Yeah, you know, you want to tap beer, and you’re doing the same thing, you’re cracking one open, at the end of the day, it’s going to remove stress, and pretty soon, you’re going to edge back in to doing the real stuff. And I feel like, especially with our younger kids, if they get a Delta eight pin, we’re just going to suck it inside out and see if we can get as high as we would on regular marijuana. So, you know, I think it has to have a lot of education behind it, you know.
Mark Scroggins
So how often with what you do are, are you actually having to go back into go back into courts?
Shannon White
More now, we didn’t a lot during we didn’t a lot during COVID, I spent a lot of time working on the drug courts in Collin County. And when I did that, that was a weekly, you know, exposure to judges and you know, the team making decisions for people, right? We do more of that now. And quite honestly, we have gotten a lot of our clients or CPS. And so we work with CPS for to get kids situated to get kids back in their custody to do that before they actually go to court. Right. And so that’s been a huge blessing. We very seldom have gone for termination hearings. I think I think we’ve maybe lost two kids that didn’t go back to their parents, which is something we’re really proud of. Yeah, but huge. It is huge. And part of that is awareness and part of it is CPS being willing to reach out to us and let us help them and really listening to what we say, right? Today in our office. We’re seeing a family who doesn’t have a CPS case, but I’m seeing the dad, my other therapist is seeing the mom who is the alcoholic and our adolescent specialist seeing the child all in the same family. Oh my goodness. And so we talked about we work with the the entire family. And so, you know, fortunately, we’re not spending as much time in court, but we are helping attorneys get their ducks in a row. So they have the ability to make a good good plea agreement for our clients.
Mark Scroggins
Well, that’s, that’s big as well. So one of the things that I want to talk a little bit more about what can we do? You know, as far as awareness out there to help people become aware of not just all the problems, right, our alcoholism and drug addiction, but what resources there are like Grace to change and what that can do for your lot.
Shannon White
Yeah, I’m grateful that you said that because one of the things especially with this fentanyl, so there’s a bunch of videos that are going around now called fentanyl factor. It’s a good video, but it shows very sad families who’ve lost their children. And we suck people into the fear and the anxiety and I want to be a person that delivers hope about these things. You know, there’s there’s a strong dose of reality that has to come with it. This is a real problem. But there’s also love and solutions. We’re actually doing something with the potter’s house, where the churches are going to get involved.
Mark Scroggins
When you say the Potter’s house, for those who don’t know what that is..
Shannon White
Potter’s house church, so they have reached out to to us and we were going to do a presentation in front of their group on a Saturday morning. And what they’ve asked is that we do a presentation, they’re going to film it and to show it in all of their services. So wow, we are super proud of them for you know, not often do you get to mention God and drugs in the same sentence. Probably shouldn’t do more of it. But so there are a lot of resources in Collin County. And there are a lot of resources that help with substance abuse that help with housing that help with all the issues that come out of what happens when you’re trying to get your life together. After you’ve admitted you have a problem, right. And so we want to be a voice of of help in that we want you to be able to pick up the phone and call us. If we’re not a fit for you, which we’re not for everyone. If you’ve got managed care insurance, I would rather you use your insurance. But we have a connection to a lot of other places around where we can point you to get the help that you need.
Mark Scroggins
So y’all can be y’all can kind of for lack of a better way of putting it quarterback of the situation.
Shannon White
Absolutely be consultants. Okay. Yep. And we want to do that. Because we know making that phone call is really hard. Right? You know, I, our phone rings, and people often say I have zero idea where to start so I’m just going to start talking. Great, That’s what you do.
Mark Scroggins
That’s so huge, because you actually see now or I’ve seen, you know, you’ve got private consultants that do exactly what we’re talking about, you know, and whether it’s starting with an intervention, because the person is is not there. And I have my own opinions about interventions. Right. You know, that can be great. It most of the time, it’s a great show..
Shannon White
You want to watch it for entertainment value.
Mark Scroggins
But then they’re there lots of people that are that are looking at that. And then you know, they’re helping them get to what makes sense for that person. And it might be in state it might be locally might be, you know, out in California or Arizona, they’re very well known programs in both places that are very, very expensive.
Shannon White
Well, and a lot of people think, Oh, I’m just going to send them to AA, right, or I’m going to send them to NA and, and they are a fabulous support. But I think times have changed. You know, back in the 60s, when people were smoking weed, it was so minimal in the content in the content of THC right now the drugs that people are using literally are deadly. And so alcohol can kill you. Xanax can kill you and detoxing from those substances. There are plenty of people who come to me and they are drinking so much alcohol that I literally have to say you cannot stop cold turkey because it will kill you. Right. So you either need to titrate down or you need to go to a hospital and that they manage it. Exactly. And people don’t know that. So people just say you got to stop drinking right now. Well, you could kill someone you love by demanding that request. Right? And you know, that’s an extreme cases. But you know, this is this, you need an expert to help point you in a direction of exactly what they need.
Mark Scroggins
Right? Well, I love hearing what y’all are doing with Potter’s house. How do people get a hold of you and get a hold of the folks that at Grace to change to begin that journey?
Shannon White
So pick up the phone and call us we we are very proud that we just got a high tech phone system, we’ve just upgraded our phone system. So now you can actually call and you can talk to Jennifer or Kim or Bonnie or Daniel or Shannon and leave a very specific message and we get it on our phone. Okay. So we are we are not 40 hour a week workers. So this is a set for 24/7 addiction. So you can call reach out, leave a specific message we can get get back to you, you can check out our website grace to change.org. I encourage people to follow us on Facebook, we’re gonna try to put more awareness out about fit in Hall and get some facts out.
Mark Scroggins
So is this also something let’s say the folks at Prestonwood Baptist Church who have 40,000 plus Yes, members could say call you or reach out to you on the website and say Shannon, we need help on educating our folks?
Shannon White
Please do that’s our hope we’re our hope is that we can put something together with police with fire with all these people. So we can actually navigate this crisis together. And I do believe churches get a ton of phone calls about people that are suffering with addiction. And as much as I love churches, they’re not equipped to handle. You know, we can pray for people and that’s always a great thing. But a lot of times people need more than that. And so we want to encourage them to utilize the resources that are out there and to ask for the help that they need, we would love to go to any church that wants to do it and give a presentation of facts.
Mark Scroggins
Right? Well, and one other thing I want to make people aware of so grace to change, you know, gets gets public funding and the rest are benefactors. Right? Right. There’s there’s not enough of the self pay to keep y’all doing what you’re doing. So, you know, getting getting donations is something that is hugely important for y’all be able to continue to do this work.
Shannon White
It absolutely is. And it’s very hard. It’s hard to ask for help. It’s hard to do it. And let’s be honest, drug addicts and alcoholics aren’t the sexiest people, right? Small children that need daycare or special needs kids, people can get funding for that we have a really hard time. And so I want to encourage people to do their research to figure out what’s out there to figure out where to donate money to places like Grace to change that actually have impact. We are boots on the ground, right? We have anywhere from 25 to 30 adults at any given time. And right now our group, our adolescent group is getting close to full 10. Wow. So and we figure probably 85 to 95% of our people don’t pay for anything that comes to us, right? So their treatment is free.
Mark Scroggins
Well, and one thing you’ve got coming up now is there’s going to be a gala, where people can learn more and can make donations and can actually do something.
Shannon White
Yeah, sponsors come and see. So I encourage people that follow us on Facebook, we try to stay ahead of what’s going on. We’re encouraging people now if you’ve got lost a loved one that our treatment program costs $3,500 for 12 weeks of treatment, and lifetime aftercare. So if you want to start a scholarship fund in honor of someone that you love, we will we will treat someone for that small fee, and give you the recognition. So, you know, their life doesn’t have to be in vain.
Mark Scroggins
You know, and I hate to hate to mention this, but this is something that’s always good when you start making these kinds of donations. You’ve got tax write offs. Absolutely. With that, right. So absolutely. You can help yourself in in the right guard for sure and do really good for the community.
Shannon White
Yeah, and I wish I could figure out more I don’t understand all that. But I do know it is you know, you do get a benefit on your taxes. And it does go and we’re doing a strategic plan that’s going to come out pretty soon. And it when I’ve done it, it’s been shocking, quite honestly shocking to me, our expenses and our probably 90% of the money that goes into expenses at Grace to change our for salaries and rent, right, we probably spend between eight and 10%. If even that on phone, food for the people. At the other thing, people can make donations of food water, we had a client drive back up and say open the back door. Here’s my truck, and you probably brought us $500 worth of water and snacks and everything from Sam’s. That’s so so we tried to feed the clients every night adolescents and adults because most of them if they can afford if we can feed them a meal, they can put the $10 towards the meal towards gas for their car, right. So we try to do that have stacks of candy of water. So that’s another way people can get back. Well, thank you. Thank you for letting me do this. This was fun.
Mark Scroggins Good. I’m glad I really enjoyed it. And I thought it was so important for people to understand what an organization like Grace to change does for the community and how, you know, getting educated is so important because this is something you know, this is the kid that lives next door to you. Is you know, an Eagle Scout and straight A student and all of this that. Yep, you know, Ron, what do you think? That’s exactly right. Well, thank you all for joining us for another version of the reclamation transformation and make sure you reach out and find Shannon and her great group at Grace to change. Look them up on Facebook or any one of a number of other places on social media. And don’t forget folks change starts with you, so leave your mark.
