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Scroggins Law Group

When To Consult A Divorce Attorney; How To Gather Financial Info

 

Senior VP of Cresa Dallas, Roy Reis joins divorce attorney Mark Scroggins to discuss financial information gathering dos and don’ts for a divorce and offer negotiation know-how in the legal sphere. Learn what mistakes are often made before or during divorce court and how to ensure that crucial financial evidence is able to be presented in family law proceedings.

Mark Scroggins  

Hey folks, Mark Scroggins with Scroggins Law Group. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the reclamation transformation. Today I have my good friend Roy Reese here, Roy, how you doing?

Roy Reis  

Good to see it’s good to be on it. 

Mark Scroggins  

Great to see you as well. It’s been a long time. I don’t think we’ve really gotten together since prior to COVID. I know. Yeah. Hard to believe. So now. So everybody knows, Roy. We met because when I was looking for a lease that we ended up in this building, actually, and subsequently has helped me with three other leases twice with our Dallas office..

Roy Reis  

Flower Mound, Frisco. I mean, I think you’ve expanded like 63 times since I first met you, Mark, right. I mean, he’s that. I mean, 

Mark Scroggins  

slightly less. 

Roy Reis  

Probably seven real estate transactions in five years. 

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah.

Roy Reis  

But anyways, no, hey, I’m here. I’m here not talking about real estate. I’m here because I like you. Right. We’re buddies. And we’ve had quite the journey the last five years.

Mark Scroggins  

Absolutely. So one of the things we were talking about a little bit before is, you know, differences, you know, pre COVID and post COVID. And, you know, what did you What did you see you know, pre COVID. Let’s talk about from a marriage standpoint. One of the things that I thought, and I’m very lucky I made it through even after being married for a second time my second marriage survive with the success, the success rates on second marriages are significantly lower than first marriages. A lot of people don’t understand that. Okay, yeah, each time you get married, it’s progressively less likely that it will not end in divorce. 

Roy Reis  

Okay, so why is that?

Mark Scroggins  

I think because we get older and set in our ways, and you’re protecting your own money. And so the idea of like, you’re young and naive, and it’s the two of us against the world out there to conquer. By that time, it’s bullshit, this is mine, and what’s mine is mine. And it’s not yours anymore. Okay. You know, so I think that’s what it comes with. And so people also have, they’re less tolerant, okay, about, you know, the kind of stuff they’re going to put up with, especially if they don’t have kids. And so with a lot of marriages, a lot of second marriages, you know, you’ve had an increase in what’s called Gray Divorce these days, which is, I will say, primarily the older 50 crowd, but you know, it can be a little younger than that. And a lot of the time, those folks, it’s on a second marriage, and they haven’t been married as long and they don’t share kids. And so you can think of all of the issues of the Brady, the Brady Bunch was a great sitcom from the 70s. But I don’t think it works out like that the vast majority.

Roy Reis  

It’s not, it’s not, you know, the, the sitcom of the 70s. So everybody should get married, like me, at 24, after dating for six months, and be married, going on 16 years in July, I was 7/7/07. Right? Kind of easy to remember with two kids. So I was young, I was dumb. I was poor. And it was us against the world. And now I’m just a little bit older, dumb, maybe a little bit more money, and it’s still us against the world. It’s been fun.

Mark Scroggins  

you know, it amazes me because that you basically prescribed, what I can say a lot of my client bases. And that is that they only dated for a period of six months. So y’all are really kind of an anomaly in that situation where you don’t know each other. That well, then again, I think if you date too long, it can be a situation where you will never get married. Yeah, that’s just you know, that’s my opinion. I’m not siding. 

Roy Reis  

What’s interesting with ours is our principles were very aligned. Right? In fact, so I met her at church, okay. And actually, like a real church, not like a bar that was called a church, because I met some people are like, Oh, we met at church. And that was actually a bar around the corner from my interest. 

Mark Scroggins  

That’s a great idea. It’s a great talk about your other business things.

Roy Reis  

I guess they would tell their kids that one day we met, we met at church, but we actually met at church and had a lot of the same principles in alignment. That doesn’t mean that there wasn’t challenges and difficulties, but our principles, who we were was fundamentally aligned, which was helpful.

Mark Scroggins  

I think that is so that is I’m so glad you mentioned that because I think that is incredibly important and something that people today and when I say today, I’m not talking just about in 2023, but I’m talking about over the last 15 years that people have kind of gotten away from they don’t always know what’s important to to each other.

Roy Reis  

So like I thought Jessica was really just into looks right? like I really thought she was I thought she was shallow and was just into it. And then write it well, how could she not? And that’s what I say. But really it was really her principles and who I was. 

Mark Scroggins  

So do regret turning down Magic Mike?

Roy Reis  

Yeah, you know, it was it was the money we just won, right? The contract wasn’t there. But you know, it sounds crazy. When we do go through tough times, to found the foundation is actually not built on shallow things. And I feel like so many people that I meet, if you marry for money, let me tell you something, there will never be enough money. If you marry for looks, there will always be somebody else. That’s pretty, or, Hey, guess what, when you get older, and that little gray starts coming in, and I’m up 15 pounds this past year for whatever, like, you realize that hey, this person still loves me for who I am, not what I think I am. I don’t know that that was an interesting dynamic for us in marriage.

Mark Scroggins  

Well, I think you you, you know, hit it on the nose that that is how, you know, it’s like you you hear about there? There’s the saying of people being equally yoked. Yeah, you know, which it shows where I from, because that is the old, you know, agricultural aspect of making sure that you’ve got two bowls that are equally yoked so you can have them go in a straight line so they don’t pull off center. Okay. So you can tell I worked in the fields as a youngster. 

Roy Reis  

I think that maybe your your church upbringing. 

Mark Scroggins  

Could be that too.

Roy Reis  

 I’ve heard that you’ve maybe heard that a time or two in church as a kid. 

Mark Scroggins  

I did hear that in church a time or two. So growing up in the Episcopalian Church and talking about being equally yoked, and it’s interesting, because my current wife and I are very equally yoked from the standpoint that we’re both incredibly spiritual, have a you know, have a belief in God. But yeah, struggle with organized religion and so it’s a little, it’s different. Now. My ex wife had a childlike faith that I was just envious of, that’s just not my story, not how it worked for me. But, but making sure you are equally yoked and especially along the lines of what you talked about, you know, are you all in agreement about wanting kids not wanting kids? Are you in agreement on financial aspects? You know, is someone a spender is someone to saver?

Roy Reis  

Look, one of the things that I’ve learned it’s so great. In a marriage, it’s really worked out for me. What’s mine is hers and what’s hers is hers. That works out really well, too. I’m just kidding but you know, marriage is not 50/50 marriages is 100/100 . I’ve seen a breakdown in people’s marriage, where somebody’s 100 And somebody’s like, negative 100 or even 90. You know, by the way, you can be 99% that 1% Right, go have a fling with somebody. You know, it’s crazy. Like, you just saw this prostitution ring in Frisco and southwest, right? 

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah. 

Roy Reis  

And you know, so many times. We think all of these bad things were in the suburbs, right? You’re in Dallas too. But Flower Mound, Frisco, Plano. We feel like we live in this protected life where we live in this perfect bubble, right? Talk about COVID. And what I’ve seen the last three years, is things just get shattered. And so if what everybody that had a perfect facade, they had a very pretty veneer, right, but they actually behind it was really.. you ever seen teeth, that actually when they take off the veneer, what it looks like how they saw it down and put it’s actually like the ugliest looking smile ever. Right? And that’s probably the way most people’s lives really are behind closed doors. It’s really ugly. It’s really messy. their personal lives are really tough. You know, I was listening this morning on the radio, and they were saying that the average debt in America is $7,000 of credit card debt. But what that doesn’t take into account that’s the average across every American. So really, what happens is the people that have debt actually have 15,000 the other people have zero. You take a job, and people cannot pay that off. There’s financial strain. There’s the appearance of I’ve got to keep up with the Joneses. I’ve got to wear the nice sport coat wear the right watch. We just came back from spring break. And I am so sick and tired of people asking me where are we are on spring break. You know why? You know what they want to know what they want to talk about? Where they went on spring? They went? “The powder was gonna be a little light in Vail in Aspen so we decided to do a beach vacation. You know, we’re really kind of 50/50 on it. Because you know, last time we were in the grand cave…” and I’m like look you don’t care about my vacation. All you all you wanted to do was tell me about yours. And oh, by the way, you probably wanted to, like, take 17 pictures and you had to like live feed them And then you had to congregate all of the best pictures and then put those on Instagram. Like we live in a really, really fake world. And what I’ve, what I’ve gone through the last few years is, look, you and I’ve gotten to know each other. I know your story, you know, my story, but my story is, I’m a guy that put himself through SMU which community college first put myself through SMU, and I always felt like I should be bringing myself up by the bootstraps. Like, I’ve got to go make it. I’ve got to go, like I’ve got to perform, right. I always felt like I had to perform, and even doing leases with people. If the terms aren’t right, man, oh, well, I got to figure out how to make them right. Like, sometimes a deal just doesn’t work. And that’s, that’s okay. And I’ve got to be able to say, hey, you know, what, we weren’t able to achieve this wasn’t anything that I’m not a good negotiator. I’m not good at sales. This is what the deal is. And this is what you need to know, because you’re gonna live here too, right? But what I would say is, I’ve learned to strip off that veneer and say, I’m so tired of getting my love and acceptance insecurity from performing all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I just can’t, like I can’t perform to please every man and I can’t perform to show off. I can’t, I don’t want to go on a vacation because you went to the Grand Cayman, well, I need to go stay at the Ritz, it’s crazy and this is the way people are living and there’s a complete breakdown in society right now.

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah, it’s interesting. You know, I have that conversation with not only family, but with clients a lot of that time too, because it is amazing. 

Roy Reis  

Okay, hold on. Biggest thing I have to ask. Yes. It maybe it’s like, attorney client privilege. You know, I’ve watched enough stuff. What’s the biggest? Is it cheating? Is it money? What is it? How many years?

Mark Scroggins  

Have I been practice? 

Roy Reis  

Yeah. 

Mark Scroggins  

God, this may it’ll be 30 years. Okay. Which means officially I’m old. So

Roy Reis  

I told you that. I told him that a few years ago, by the way, it’s true.

Mark Scroggins  

I was trying to ignore it. You know, my daughter told me at 40 that I should be counting backwards. So officially, I guess I’m 25. I turned 40 this year? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you look good for 40 year old. Yeah. So you know. Yeah. So we’re taping this right. Okay. So, yeah, you look great for 40.

Roy Reis  

Let’s see if you say the same thing next year. Yeah, exactly what I’m worried about..

Mark Scroggins  

Right. You know, so most people think that it’s infidelity that is the greatest cause of divorce. And it’s not its finances. So like, 

Roy Reis  

Really? 

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah, its finances. So typically, you have somebody who’s a spender, and somebody who’s a saver, and they can’t reach an agreement on how they’re going to spend things, and then it can get further out of whack based on if someone’s a stay at home parent. And so you’ve got one person who is earning all of the money. No. But that’s just one part of the puzzle, right, is that they’re earning the money, there needs to be an agreement on how the money is going to be spent. Because in Texas, with Texas, being a community state, that, you know, 100 million dollars that a person earns a year, obviously, I’m using a ridiculous number, you know, but 

Roy Reis  

I told you not to talk about my earnings last year, again, so much for attorney client privilege. lol

Mark Scroggins  

Exactly. Well, you hadn’t paid me 

Roy Reis  

That’s true. 

Mark Scroggins  

But what a person earns, I mean, that person and that person spouse are just as entitled to those monies because it is a community state. So like, one of the first things that I get asked our people should ask in a divorce is how do we get a hold of the financial information that we need for a divorce? How do we go about gathering that information? Yeah, so you want to try to gather what you can prior to actually filing for divorce? So you know, a snapshot in time and know what, what things actually look like. 

Roy Reis  

What’s the biggest mistake that somebody made?

Mark Scroggins  

Don’t start getting into your other spouses, email, text messages, things like that, unless you have been provided with a unless you’ve been provided with their login information, and they know that you are in there because now you get violations of both state and federal wiretapping laws. So that can be huge. 

Roy Reis  

We live in a country with laws in order and so you’ve got to obey by the laws in order.

Mark Scroggins  

You’re supposed to very few do and when they Don’t what you run the risk of is losing the ability to get that evidence, that evidence into evidence. So, in other words, somebody comes to me and they’ve got all this information about their husband’s bonus. Okay. And let’s say he’s gonna get a $2 million bonus because they sold off a part of the company and he has an ownership interest in it. And let’s say there was no other way for her to know about it. Yeah, but she brings all this to me in the initial consultation. Well, unless we can go about finding out that information some other way. That is not going to see the light of day, okay, because it is what is called fruit from the poisonous tree. Okay, it is a violation of certain rules. You can also run into familial torts or marital torts. Okay. A tort is like if you and I got in a car wreck, I T boned you, you sue me, you get a $50,000 award for pain and suffering, right? That’s a that’s a tort that’s negligence, you add those within a marriage to and one of those places would be is if you are invading the other person’s privacy if it gets harassing, if you have these wiretap violations, so there are a whole hell of a lot of different places that you can run into problems. 

Hold on, what is the day in the life like of Mark Scroggins? That’s a better question.

It’s not boring. So family law is drugs, sex, violence, and money.

Roy Reis  

So talk to me about this. And I’ve asked you this before. How do you how do you stay sane? Here’s another question. Have you always have you always done that? How did you cope before? Because look, this is where you and I have really like kind of hit it off, right? I’ve been through my like, life is like we’ve survived. It’s hard. Life is hard. In fact, I remember meeting you. And I was kind of curious, because I’ve met other family law offices. Right. Right, that have wanted me to represent them, right. And I meet them. And I’ve got to be honest with you, like, I just get like this bad vibe about them. And I remember meeting you. And I’ll tell the story. I don’t know if you remember this or not. And I said, Hey, so you’re interviewing me? Very rarely Am I interviewing somebody on a real estate site. But I said, Hey, so tell me about what you do. And I remember you sat down, Mir was there. And you said, Roy, I work with really, really good people on their worst day. And my job is to help them and I was like, whoa, okay, I like this guy. Right? Because look, married 15 years. Love my wife, we’re gonna be right where it is us against the world. I feel like it back. But but like, I mean, like, your job really is meeting really good people. And I’ve had friends that have gone through divorce. And I’ve had friends that are going through difficult times. Right? I’ve called you on things even recently, right? Yeah. And you’re you’re guiding you’re all it’s almost like we’re principally aligned in some ways, right? Pretty much your your guiding principle is, hey, I want to do right by my clients. But there’s a right way to do it. Right. And it’s not and it’s not to gouge it’s not to it’s not to gouge the client to destroy their life. So you can go make a bunch of money? 

Mark Scroggins  

No. I mean, I’m a big believer in you do things the right way and the rewards that you will receive are many and yeah, good. Inversely, as part of that, I believe the opposite is true. I believe that, you know, to those who are given much, much as expected, and so and, and not about being looked at me when I’m doing these things, so nobody out there knows the different stuff. That’s right. They don’t want to publicize it.

Roy Reis  

I know. So I should have brought it up. I should have brought up so let’s talk about so I know, tell me about back in the day.

Mark Scroggins  

So the way we were talking about how do we cope? How do we cope on some so there was a time when, you know, the way I coped was drinking, you know, and sort of drinking tamped down all the shit. And that’s a great word for it. Oh, shit, that was bothering me. I’d never I couldn’t maintain really a spiritual connection. I worked out like a fiend. But it wasn’t enough. Nothing was enough. I mean, so it was, I’ve referred to it as trying to feel, you know, this god sized hole that was in the middle of me, and I don’t want to, you know, I don’t want to, I am not here to shove my views down anybody’s throat but at a certain point, that didn’t work. And so, you know, it became a problem, I quit, I was lucky enough that I was able to, you know, to get sober and to stay sober for a significant amount of amount of time. And, you know, and there were some hiccups actually different times and you know, and luckily, I’m sitting here, six and a half years over this time, which is this is great, but the one thing that I have done is put different things in place. So I’m, you know, all of these different Things are built around increasing my spiritual life. Yeah. So you know, I’m involved in a 12 step fellowship I am, you know, I use a therapist. Occasionally I’d really go in quarterly. And unless I’ve got in got some firm, I go in quarterly for what I will call a mental health checkup. Yeah. I love that. And if things are getting hard, you know, it might pick up a little bit. Yeah. And, and then I am involved. You know, I use prayer and meditation. And those are the things that align me. So that I, you know, that I’m not a bigger asshole than I can be. 

Roy Reis  

Look, like, I was saying, there’s, I couldn’t, I always felt like I had to perform to feel loved. Right. And then if you don’t do things, right, there’s shame. Right? And not guilt, like guilt and shame are different. Like people don’t realize that guilt and shame are different if you go back to the beginning, right? So I’m a Christian. If you look at Adam and Eve, when they were first made, the Bible says that they were naked and unashamed. Right? And then they then they commit a sin. And then they another and then they’re like, Oh, they’re trying to cover they’re like, trying to cover up with a leaf. Right. And God still Gods still shows up in their life. Right? And how many times in my life have I been? Have I not done the right thing? And I’m exposed. Right? Right. And even even if I’m not exposed for the thing that I did wrong, I feel guilty, right? I’m trying to cover up I’m trying to run forgot, run from God. And I’m either trying you either try to perform. You can you can find it in performance. You can stop biting insects, you can find drugs, you can find it in alcohol, absolutely. Like in all, all you’re trying to do is fill some void. That’s right. And so there was a there’s a verse in the Bible. It’s in Romans five, okay. And it talks about like, why do you go through difficult times, right, it says, it says that basically going through difficult times, I’m going to paraphrase the very beginning of going through difficult times, test you, which develops character, which then develops strength, which then develops hope, which does not put you to shame. And I read that word shame. And I was like, well, that’s interesting. And then it says, I will pour my spirit into you, right? Talking about spiritual. And if you ever walk into a church, you hear marriage things people talk about the fruits of the Spirit. Sometimes you’ll see it love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self control. What’s the opposite of that? anxiousness. Angry, jealousy. I mean, why is the person cheering about the spring break? They’re just jealous. They’re just insecure, right?

Mark Scroggins  

That’s absolutely right. I mean, so it’s crazy,

Roy Reis  

Right? Like, it all comes down to two things. You’re either you’re either a really prideful, yeah. Which that’s wrong, right? Are two you’re really insecure. Which that’s wrong. Like, and you’re all if you’re always operating from Pride and insecurity, right. And I can’t speak just kind of like you write your spiritual, how you felt this empty void. And I felt a void, kind of during COVID, where I’ve read the Bible forever. And it was like, I read that and it’s like, he jumped off the page. And he was like, Whoa, like, because you’ve talked about, you’ve been looking at like organized religion, and it’s funny, like, how many times is the Bible like in the Bible? Are they actually not like some of the churches all the way like the the end of Revelation three or seven? I’m not a theologian. I’m a real estate guy. But like, it literally is like telling the church Hey, you think you’re doing all the right things, but you’re not right. Because we’re all broken and fallen people.

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah. And I I agree. And that is, you know, that is what has been a difference. It’s kind of like, you know, look, Nobody enjoys a good Bare Knuckle brawl in the courtroom. Yeah, more than me. But a hammer is not the only tool to use you know, one of the things that I pride myself on and pride our firm on is really thinking outside of the box and trying to come up with unique solutions for complex people. And you know, where they’ve got a lot of assets or they’ve got a lot of problems and so we’re trying to help them fix a very difficult situation in the best way possible. And one of the a good Bare Knuckle brawl, should be where the lawyers are fighting it out, but it’s not personal. Okay. It’s just we can walk out at the end of the day and the same used to be in shared beer hell, I’ll go have one of my flavored waters or whatever. Someone else will have a beer or some other cocktail and I’m fine with that. But there is something that is different today with some of those that are out there that want to they cross over the line of ethics and become on ethical in their pursuit of a win, and it’s where they are doing things that are unethical, and I would even say unlawful, and I wish more courts would hold them in contempt.

Roy Reis  

So what are they doing? Going back to the nail and the hammer? I say this all the time, every everybody thinks to every problem or an in negotiation, I’m going to hammer it. Well guess what? What’s on the other end? There’s another end and a negotiation. And if it’s a screw, and you’re trying to hit it with a hammer, guess what? Yeah, does nothing it does, it does nothing. In fact, you’re, you’re probably going to be the one that gets screwed in the negotiation. That’s right, right. So like, be careful, if you’re trying to hit a hammer. If you’re trying to hit a screw with a hammer, you’re the one that’s getting screwed. And then you’re, like, look, look at the parts. And the other thing is, is, you know, these things are, these things are really complex. Yeah, right. Like, even in our negotiations, it’s complex. It’s not just, Hey, give me one thing. It’s there’s so many factors that go into what we do. Just like there’s so many factors that go into what you do. But when you’re doing it, like you in our negotiations, you handle it very classy and calm and smooth. Talk to me about like, how do you keep I asked you that, hey, how do you how do you keep your temperament? And by the way, you’re the one writing the check for the rent, not me. And I’m, you’re helping me five years ago with this, and I’ve been in the business for like, you know, 12 years at that point. So it’s not like I was some young person that had never done it. I’ve done a couple 100 leases, but I was just blown away by your comfort in negotiations.

Mark Scroggins  

Well, thank you. You know, that’s, I think it is it is learn just like everything in life. So, you know, I couldn’t stand when Jason Garrett was the coach of the Cowboys, because I got so damn tired of here and trust the process. He just requires a process Exactly. 

Roy Reis  

Yeah. By the way, Nick Saban has to trust the process. And his works, though.

Mark Scroggins  

And that’s the fundamental difference. So like, right now, you know, you cut me I bleed burnt orange. You know, I think Steve Sarkeesian might be one of the best recruiters that have ever seen. I’m not convinced that he can coach. Okay, so that being said, I will trust the process, when that starts turning into wins, can you but it’s a whole thing when we talk about in family law, okay, or when you talk about anything in life, of trusting the process. So first, if you are relying on someone else’s expertise, to guide you through or shepherd you through the process, you need to trust them and let them do their job. So I hired you because I thought you were the proper commercial real estate person to shepherd me through the process of taking my business to the next level with the facilities that we were going to operate out of when a client hires me to shepherd them through the divorce process, or a child custody matter. It is about let me do my job. And trust what I tell you, is going to benefit you in the long run. If you hire a lawyer, and you do not follow what their direction is, why hire a lawyer in the first place. It’s good law, okay, because all you are doing is wasting your money. And then what happens is, if you hire a lawyer like me, and you continue to disregard my advice, and you continue by doing that placed me into difficult positions, I’m going to fire you as a client. Yeah, because I don’t need it. 

Roy Reis  

Hold on, they’re losing their spouse and their attorney?

Mark Scroggins  

It’s like go find someone.

Roy Reis  

It’s not good for these people. 

Mark Scroggins  

They need to add that’s the point. 

Roy Reis  

That’s crazy. Yeah.

Mark Scroggins  

It’s like, you know, if you tell me and you did about bout some of we don’t really want to be in this building, because the people that own the building are completely out of touch with reality. Yeah. Okay. So let’s just move along, because it just doesn’t make sense. Yeah. It’s the same thing here. If you’re not going to let me do my job I do and have been doing for coming up on 30 years, as compared to what the hell you’ve Googled on the internet. Fucking hire me hire me. I mean, it’s, I’m not the guy for you. Yeah. And I don’t have now life is too short. And that’s a big difference is, as you get this experience, I think we learn as professionals don’t bang your head against the wall to try to make someone see the light. If they don’t want to see the light. They don’t want to see the light. There’s nothing that you can do. It’s the old thing of, you know, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. It’s the same thing.

Roy Reis  

So tell me talk to me about your favorite part. Right? Is it is it the negotiation? Is it the beginning? Is it the like? People are always surprised on the real estate side. People say a lot better closing is really happy for you Like, right ideal closes, I was like no, actually, it’s, it’s, it makes me sad, I kind of get depressed. Because the clients I work with, I really enjoy working with them. And for sometimes I may not be working with them on a daily basis for five or seven or 10 years or maybe ever right. So what’s what is your favorite part of the process?

Mark Scroggins  

That’s a really good question. So it’s a combination. Generally, I really love to see the transformation that a client goes through from beginning to end. Because typically, they have transformed. So one of the you know, we’re very different in the way we practice. I’ve got a litigation consultant on board, who is a licensed professional counselor that assists with putting our people with the right therapists or different experts that we need and things like that, that plays a really unique, a unique role. So when, when a client to truly follows our direction, and listens to what we are espousing and assists in that process. I see them transform from the broken soul that they are, who had very little hope, to someone who is ready to walk into and oftentimes celebrate their new life. Now, when I say celebrate their new life, that doesn’t mean that sadness, isn’t there. Yeah. It doesn’t mean that there might not be some regret. But it means that they have completely grasped what I had been telling them or what we collectively My firm has been telling them. They have availed themselves of that knowledge base and the process, and they are walking, walking out, knowing that they have hope now and that they see, not only is there light at the end of the tunnel, but that light just expands as they walk out into it as they exit the tunnel.

Roy Reis  

Yeah, it’s kind of funny, right? Hope your favorite thing is seeing the hope. It’s kind of what when I was saying when I was going through a tough time, right? It’s like, Alright, hold on. Why am I going through a tough time? Right? There’s a reason it’s sharpening the perseverance. And then you have hope, right? And you’re You have no shame. Right? And you’re filled in, you’re different. So can you relate? By the way, I think you’re supposed to be interviewing me, but I’m completely interviewing you. I’m sorry. Oh, that’s all right. So hold on. So can you relate to these people because of what you’ve been through?

Mark Scroggins  

Absolutely. So you know, my belief in what causes shame, okay, is when we are continuing to do an action that we know is wrong, and that we feel guilty about. Okay. Okay. So the perfect example I use for me, is, before I could get sober, I found myself drinking when I didn’t want to drink. Okay, yeah, it’s just like the man or woman who’s having an affair that knows it’s wrong, but keeps going back continues to go back because of the pleasure of it. Okay. So we’re just the bond, if you want to, if you want to receive a steam, do a steam bubble things. Yeah, right. Okay. So it’s when you know, you’re doing something that is wrong based on whatever your own moral compasses.

Roy Reis  

Yeah. Okay, try and understand my compass is probably a little bit different than others. And yours is right. You know, and I’m also no judgement.

Mark Scroggins  

I’m here to help someone and that’s it. But it’s, you know, when you can really when that person can grab a hold of, look, I did some stuff in the past that I’m, I feel guilty for, or I feel ashamed for, but they have done everything that they could to correct the situation. And a lot of the time. That’s nothing. That’s just don’t continue the same behavior. Yeah. Right. And so letting go of that, and moving on. So here’s a, here’s an example of where I see this all the time. I will see men or women who have an addiction issue, whether it be alcohol, drugs, sex, money, gambling, whatever, yeah, that they feel so much shame for what the past behavior was. And typically, it’s at the beginning of when they’re trying to take those first steps to get well get recovered, whether, you know, however, they’re doing that, if they’re, you know, going into a 12 step step program, if they’re going to a therapist, if they’re seeing a psychologist, if they’re seeing a psychiatrist, you know, whatever. Yeah, okay. And they feel so guilty that they want to give the farm Why? Because there is no amount of money, you can pay the other party to get rid of that shame. And what is on the other side of that is six months down the road. They have buyer’s remorse. Why the hell didn’t I do this? And why didn’t you keep me from doing this? Because it’s your deal, man, I tried to talk to you out of it and told you this is exactly how he’d feel. Yeah, I don’t care. This is what I want to do. Well, that’s your decision to make. Okay, but understand, you’re gonna sign something that says, This is against legal advice, you know, because there’s nothing that you can do to do in that regard. So what do I tell clients that I see in that situation is, I want you to talk to this person, I want you to talk to that person. You know, I want you to get a hold on this and understand what I’m telling you is what my experience has been if you still choose to go down that road. That’s up to you. Yeah. But so are the implications.

Roy Reis  

Yeah, you know, you know, I think we, we’ve talked before, but I think the number one thing that people ultimately want is freedom. Yeah. Right. And when we say freedom, like why do people want to come to America freedom, right, but too many times when we’re in bondage to drinking or sex or money or gambling? Right? Hopefully, not all of those, which a lot of times they are just going to Las Vegas. It’s full of them. Yeah. Yep. What’s funny is something that starts out so great, can literally destroy somebody’s life. Right? A drink, hey, grab a drink with this. It’s casual. Hey, Mark, what? Right, right. And then next thing you know, it’s, you know, two o’clock and you’re supposed to be working and that person is going to the bar, right? They don’t want they don’t want to like they don’t want to go to the bar. They don’t. We talked about that prostitution ring. Those those guys that got busted, which by the way, I’m glad because there’s nothing worse than human trafficking and all the stuff that we’ve seen there, right. But man, like, I tell you, what I bet you for a lot of those men is awful is that was it’s probably pretty freeing for somebody to actually know what their life has been like, because there’s no way that was the first time maybe it was, you know what I mean? But I’m like, I feel like we live in a society where we’re going back to that veneer though that man a lot of people’s lives are messy, and a lot of people need help. And I think God gave us people to help us, right. God gave us counselors, God gave us psychiatrists, God gave us psychologists. Right. And if they’re the right ones, then you should seek them. Right. It’s no different. Because you’re sick. You’re there’s a sickness, there’s something there. Right. I’m not saying you know, yeah,

Mark Scroggins  

I think I think all the things that you just mentioned are, you know, stem from a, a form of spiritual ailment or spiritual sickness. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because it’s like, it’s what you’re using to try to make yourself feel better. Yeah, in the moment, the problem is that, you know, that immediate release that you get, doesn’t last. So I think there’s a certain power a certain freedom that you talked about when it’s like the gig is up distro. It’s like, okay, now now, I’m an open book. Now. I’m transparent now,

Roy Reis  

You’ll realize I’m all I’m actually jacked up. 

Mark Scroggins  

Right. Exactly. 

Roy Reis  

Hey, guess what, like, that was freeing for me. It’s just to be able to like, Yeah, guess what, I’ve got anxiety at times. And and this sounds weird. It’s like just saying that I was like, an anxiety about what do you everything why I don’t know the way I was raised the way I thought, the fear the fear of never having enough you always have to perform you like, like on your DNA. What’s Well, yeah, what’s in your DNA? Yeah. And I got to the point where I’m, it’s like, Man, I can’t I can’t do this anymore. Like, right, you get to 38 years old at the time, right? Raised in talked about church raised in the church done the right thing. And it was funny, I had a guy pick up a Bible this so my buddy, who’s I call my spiritual guru. Yeah. Former abs of steel, right buns of steel fitness model. You see him on ESPN back in the day. And he he runs a ministry where he helps people. But here he was living a life of basically a veneer. Yeah, he looked perfect on the outside, but was a mess on the inside. Yeah. And how many times people everyone I know would trade places with that guy in a second with the way that he looked. And the attraction that he drew, but deep down, there was a void, right? And I remember he picked up and he then became a minister, which is funny of all things. And he picked up the Bible. And I even said, well go to church. And he goes, alright, one of these days, you’re gonna read this thing, and you’re gonna believe what it says about you. And I was like, Whoa, and I literally just started reading the Bible, because organized religion. By the way, I go to a big church. I love my big church. But guess what? churches? Churches are not the solution. Right? I believe the answers are in the Bible. A And for me, right? I can’t speak for everybody. But for me, once I started reading it, like I read in Genesis about the shame, it’s like, Man, I can relate to that. Like, I’ve done things I’m not proud of, or things that I don’t want to do. And then I was reading like the fruits of the spirit. It’s like, man, what do I really want? No matter how much money I make, it’ll never be enough. It won’t give me peace. No matter no matter how nice I am, how hard I try. There’s always going to be things that don’t go your way. Right, like, look at the economy we’re in right now. What if you just had your money with Silicon Valley Bank? I don’t know the latest. Maybe the government’s gonna block it. But But I’m saying like it could all but always that fear of no matter what I do, could something happen where all this goes up in smoke, right? Yeah. And I had no, I truly had no peace in my life. And it wasn’t till I was like, I just kind of turned it over to a higher power. Yeah, right. Yep. It was like, Okay, I can’t do it myself. And then reading Romans five, and I was just like, okay, he pour, he pours it in. And I think about like a cup and a, like, a water pitcher. And literally, I’m an I’m a, I was a completely empty vessel at like rock bottom. And there was nothing I could do to pull myself. I couldn’t fill up my bottle anymore, right? I couldn’t pull myself up. It was like, All right, fill me up. Right prayer. Meditation, meditating on God’s word, studying God’s word. That changed, right? That was for me, but it is crazy. I meet so many people, and they’re trying to find it in everything else. 

Mark Scroggins  

See, and that’s one of the one of the things that I that I enjoy about our relationship is I think you and I are in the end seeking the same thing. Yeah, but come about it. With different paths, different paths, and slightly different solutions. Yeah. You know, so. And I think that those opportunities are out there. Yeah. You know, so it’s, it’s an interesting time, that’s for sure. It is in media is a whole different thing with it’s, you know, take a look at this picture. And all of a sudden, you’re comparing your insides to other people’s outsides. And, you know, so realistic.

Roy Reis  

So this is really interesting. I had interns one time and they said, Hey, we want instant gratification. And, and when I’m hearing instant gratification, I’m thinking they want $100,000 A year and the newest Mercedes, right, right. And they said, no, no, we want it faster than that. What we want is when we post a picture, we went over 100 likes in 90 seconds. And I was like, oh, that’s the instinct. Like, I didn’t even understand Instagram edification, because I’m relaying it. To my I was 35 at the time to my 35 year old self, right? They’re doing it to their 2122 year old sales. And it’s like we live in a world that our instant gratification is not even in this year, this month, but it’s literally within this minute. It’s scary.

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah, there’s some interesting times. That’s for sure. So Roy, thank you very much for joining me today.

Roy Reis  

Thanks for having me. You bet. Thanks for letting me share my story. You bet.

Mark Scroggins  

It’s been a lot of fun and everybody out there. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the reclamation transformation. And remember, change starts with you so don’t forget to leave your

214-469-3100 The divorce lawyers of Scroggins Law Group are here to advocate for you. Call us today for a consultation

When To Consult A Divorce Attorney; How To Gather Financial Info

Listen to Reclamation Transformation with Dallas Family Law Attorney Mark Scroggins for inspirational and candid discussions on topics relating to family law from the perspective of real people. And without any overwhelming lawyer-speak so you can remember that change starts with you and remember to make your mark.

 

00:03

Hey everybody, Mark Scroggins back for another edition of the Reclamation Transformation and today I’ve got a special guest; Courtney Hemsley has joined me. How are you today?

 

I am fantastic.

 

I am really excited about this. We had a really nice discussion prior to and the similarities are frankly a little scary.

 

00:27

To me it sounds like we are kind of cut from the same cloth on a lot of stuff but I wanted to introduce you and let everybody get to know you a little bit.

 

Can you just talk about what you do professionally and then we’ll get to talk about some of the good stuff as well?

 

Yeah, exactly.

 

Professionally, Empire Development Solutions were the one-stop solution for any of your construction project needs.

 

Everything starts with the land acquisitions, what looks right for land,

 

What can be built there, single family, multi-family, commercial retail, then I go from there, my company does infrastructure and development. Therefore we are doing on your streets, curbs, gutters and roads for sites to be ready to go vertical. So if anyone knows that word on all of the stuff before vertical coming in, you are building up. In addition to that, I have the lending aspect of it which has been a big part of my business providing construction loans. Land acquisition,

 

01:00

What’s the best way to do it?

 

Construction loans. Construction loans which are really, really hard for a lot of these developers to get into place.

 

And from there also being an investor resource.

 

It sounds like a lot of crazy things going on but all lines up. You have to start with the land, you have to have infrastructure and development done, you, a lot of people have to have that financing in place for construction and then on the investor side, at the end of the day find ways to put your money to work.

 

I can walk into a room and talk to investors and go, hey, have you ever invested in a business?

 

02:00

I have to be in real estate, let me show you creative ways to invest in real estate.

 

Nothing is guaranteed.

 

Of course.

 

But put your money to work and just get awareness about what is going on in that space.

 

The only way to get aware or to be aware is to being in those rooms and being around those resources.

 

So are you doing stuff both with, you mentioned a developer.

 

02:23

But let’s say if I wanted to build a house and so I’m trying to figure out, hey, Courtney, I want to build this real modern house.

 

There’s an area generally that I want to build in.

 

Is that something that I would get?

 

I don’t do anything owner occupied.

 

So it wouldn’t be like a primary residence.

 

Anything I’m going to do or going to lend on or be a part of is going to be anything what they would consider in the commercial space.

 

02:47

Even though it may have a residential component, but it wouldn’t be anything owner occupied that would be your typical mortgages like Fannie or Freddie.

 

Mine’s going to be more of we’re building a single family development or, you know, I’m an investor.

ACTION 

 

I have some land.

 

I want to buy this land.

 

I want to build two townhomes on it.

 

I’ll connect them with the builder.

 

03:05

If they don’t know how to build and they bring in the money, if they need lending, I’ll bring in the lending.

 

So just kind of connecting all those pieces together, building multifamily units.

 

Right now I have three of those going on, doing the financing for that.



And then again, there’s again, investors.

 

Like here’s opportunities to invest in multifamily.

 

That’s probably your long play on money.

 

03:31

So like if I wanted to do something like with one of the things that I’m intrigued by right now is the whole inland port.

 

Things so like, you know, going down 45 where we’ve got the, the inland port right there and let’s say that I wanted to put together some – build some multifamily down there. And to service the people that are actually going to be working at the inland port.

 

That’s something that’s right up my alley.

 

Okay.

 

All right.

 

You come up with the idea.

 

03:58

I can do anything to help partner it, you know, find the land to get that entitled for that specific use.

 

Obviously, if you’re not about going out and swinging a hammer, there are plenty of resources that build single-family townhome, multifamily.

 

That’s their space.

 

Having the construction background, which kind of still leads me down this niche.

 

My career started in construction, like on a job site all day, every day, and develop with multifamily.

 

I think I went home crying every single day.

 

04:26

I didn’t understand it.

 

There was no HR.

 

Right.

 

No, I was like, Oh, my God, what did I get myself into?

 

But it gave me just tough skin and, you know, that’s so unique to have, you know, frankly, to have a female that is involved in that space on the ground floor.

 

Yeah.

 

04:46

You’re talking about being on a job site because I remember working some construction summers when I was in high school and it was not a, it was not a PC environment.

 

Definitely not.

 

But I will say, you know, it’s interesting because being the different person has made the difference in my career.

 

There’s not a room that I walk in.

 

I actually want to walk in a room and be the oddball out.

 

Sure.

 

05:12

Because your first thing is not about attention as I’m like, Oh, look at me, but intention.

 

Okay.

 

What is she doing here?

 

First off, it’s like that.

 

What is she doing here?

 

Or secondly, you know, if you’re opposite in a room that you’re in, you get that attention.

 

05:27

Then you, what you’re talking about makes sense.

 

Right.

 

You just, they’re not going to forget you.

 

No, that’s exactly right.

 

So that’s my biggest thing.

 

I encourage everyone, you know, like, man, walk in those rooms, especially.

 

05:38

Well, you’re the oddball out of the different one, but just make sure you know what you’re talking about.

 

And, you know, people won’t forget you.

 

You’ll make those connections.

 

You’ll have the resources and you’ll make a big difference.

 

That’s truly been being different has made the difference 100% in my career as a woman in construction.

 

I can, I can absolutely understand that.

 

05:57

And it sounds like one of the things that you also just mentioned is something that I mentioned to people all the time that knowledge is power.

 

Oh, you know, so like when I have somebody asking me, you know, what should I be looking for in a family law attorney?

 

It’s like, well, you know, start with looking for someone who’s board certified because it’s a higher level of understanding.

 

It’s, you know, and you have to meet all these criteria.

 

Right.

 

But it’s about knowledge.

 

06:21

You know, if you’re kind of a jack of all trades in the.

 

You do family law.

 

You do personal injury.

 

You do criminal and all this shit.

 

You know, it’s like you’re, you’re a jack of all trades, but master of none.

 

So you don’t know what you don’t know.

 

06:33

Right.

 

So you better make sure you get someone who knows what they know, which I can’t imagine.

 

You know, you hear all the terrible stories about, you know, contractors that have taken deposits and they run or they do an absolute shotty job.

 

And then you find out, oh, well, they’re not numbers of their business.

 

You know, all these different complaints and stuff like that.

 

So, yeah, it’s important to.

 

06:59

And a key to that is I think I don’t market anything about myself.

 

Everything comes from referrals or resources that I’ve worked with before.

 

Right.



Just like you.

 

I think that I think people look over that sometimes people want to look on Google or look on however you find people these days social media.

 

And I just want to see what somebody’s talking about in the moment.

 

07:18

Right.

 

I think the real way that you get people that are legit and their business and then we’ll do their best for you is to check the resources or apps.

 

Somebody, who did you use them?

 

I mean, if you problem is, most of us don’t want to ask because we’re too embarrassed to say what we don’t know.

 

Sure.

 

But if you would me, I’m going to ask everybody.

 

07:38

Okay.

 

This is what I mean.

 

I don’t know crap about it.

 

But who has not who’s dealt with the best person in this?

 

Who’s dealt with it?

 

And how did they treat you?

 

07:44

How did it turn out?

 

I think that’s what we tend to overlook is to instead of not asking or being embarrassed that we don’t think we don’t know is to really just ask people.

 

Who did you use for who was your best law attorney?

 

Who was I think that’s probably the key?

 

Well, and I think most of those for sure.

 

I completely agree with you.

 

08:05

I think that is you know, it’s amazing though.

 

You also hit on something that I think is really important that you mentioned that sometimes we’re too embarrassed to ask, which I think is we get in our own ways.

 

And I shouldn’t I shouldn’t say that like we like third person.

 

I get in my own way.

 

All right.



Because it is difficult.

 

08:29

I think one of the hardest things at the end of the day is just being an authentic human being all the time.

 

Right.

 

Because I think most people it’s easy for me to get caught up in what the idea of a certain role is.

 

Right.

 

So I have people thinking, you know, that, wow, I should be dressed in a suit all the time.

 

And you know, this stuff sure kind of kind of deal and it’s like, man, that ain’t me.

 

08:52

Yeah.

 

You know, so and they, you know, hear me drop some interesting terminology on things.

 

And, you know, I cuss like a sailor.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, but that’s just me.

 

And it’s more of an authentic thing.

 

09:05

So understanding, getting to that point of, you know, I don’t give a shit.

 

What people think to a certain degree.

CONCERN 

 

I mean, you’ve got, you know, a healthy amount.

 

You have to have a healthy amount of you to be able to survive.

 

But to keep that from turning into an unhealthy narcissist and being a people pleaser or being being concerned about, you know, God forbid you get codependent on stuff.

 

And I’m so worried about what everybody else thinks that I can’t, you know, do my freaking job.

 

09:35

And that’s not what it’s about.

 

Right.

 

And when I say do my job, I’m not just talking about being a divorce lawyer.



I’m talking about being a friend, being a husband, being a father, you know, being a son.

 

All of these different things are different roles where they’re all I look at it like I want to be there to support or to help. 100%.

IMPORTANT

 

But if I’m worried about what everybody thinks, I also can’t protect myself by setting proper boundaries.

 

10:02

Right.

 

You’re right.

 

I think you touched face on something really important there.

 

Roles can be deceiving.

 

Absolutely.

 

Yeah.



10:09

And they can cause, they can cause a lot of pain whenever or heartache or disappointment.

 

I’ve experienced myself.

 

We all get these roles and titles.

 

Mother, father, husband, boyfriend, daughter.

 

Right.

 

And somewhere along the way, we’re taught that this role means we have to be this way.

 

10:29

Right.

 

And that’s it.

 

And when we set ourselves up to go along these roles that everyone else is trying to make us be or that we see or that we think or that we read.

 

And then that doesn’t happen.

 

That’s where that disappointment comes in or that for others and even for yourself.

 

I think that’s when you touch on that and that really, really, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked back in life, not today, but back in life and then been disappointed by myself thinking I wasn’t doing the role right, a role.

 

11:00

Disappointed in others when really now what I’ve learned is you just have to, we spoke on this earlier before, you just have to be here now and you have to love people for who they are and what they are in your life now.

 

Love yourself for who you are and what you are in your life right now.

 

And just be here in that moment.

 

There’s no past.

 

There’s no future.

 

But those roles, man, they can you really, you know, had a good one with that one because they can really, really cause us to go all different directions emotionally and mentally.

 

11:34

You know, and the interesting thing to me is that when we talk about, you know, those roles, so the definition of those roles, well, who created the definition?

 

Right.

 

It is the generation previous.

 

Right.

 

The generation prior.

 

So like, I’m generation X. Yeah.

 

11:50

You know, and so you had the baby boomers for us that were defining certain roles.

 

And so, you know, I look at the way my dad was, the way my mom is, you know, different things of what their expectations are of those roles.

 

So at that time, it was very gender specific, right?

 

You know, dad’s going to be the big earner and mom’s going to be home with the kids and, and all of these things.

 

And, you know, for generation X, that was those definitions are still in play to a certain degree, but less so, you know, so understanding how certain things work and you can be your own individual, I think is difficult a lot of the time for the baby boomers to really understand.

 

And yet, you know, my daughter, who is now 25, you know, looks at me with some of my thoughts and what makes sense for me and thinks you are out of your damn mind.

 

12:44

Live life a little, honey.

 

Yeah.

 

That’s right.

 

You know, so, but I don’t, I don’t, I can only see it in my perspective.

 

I can be very open to listening to what she says and what the way they think and think, you know, one of my dad saying said I love and now I understand it was, you know, you’re entitled to your own opinion, no matter how screwed up it is.

 

Right.

 

13:09

You know, so, so I think about that now.

 

And so, but it’s funny based on what the perspective is.

 

And so getting comfortable enough in your own skin to be able to say, well, that’s fine.

 

You can think I’m absolutely out of my mind.

 

Right.

 

And that, you know, you’re entitled to that opinion.

 

13:27

But I don’t have to live my life.

 

Exactly.

 

Based on what you or society in general, you’re right.

 

Thanks.

 

I’ve got to figure out what absolutely works for me.

 

Right.

 

13:38

Right.

 

Yeah.

 

So it’s like one of the things we were talking about before we began the podcast is you’ve really seen an acceleration in your business just going to new fights.

 

Based on exactly what we’re talking about, being the authentic you and being able to be present right here right now.

 

Yeah.

 

So 100%.

 

14:00

So how did you, you know, we all have our own, our own journeys for sure that we have to go down.

 

You know, mine is kind of mine is steeped in recovery.

 

Right.

 

And that has allowed me to obtain a certain level of spirituality and some people, you know, that don’t know me well would probably hear that and go, you’re full of shit. Because I’ve seen you in the courtroom and you do not appear to be the most spiritual person in that particular moment.

 

And that might be true at that moment.

 

14:34

But it’s like, you know, if we’re going to have a street fight, you know, I’m not going into it without.

 

Yeah.

 

Exactly.

 

So, but how did you, what got you to the point, what has worked for you to be able to really be the, the authentic Courtney and be true to who you are and live life the way it makes sense for you instead of worrying about whatever other people see.

 

And that’s a good question.

 

I would say that my entire life I’ve been in survival mode from childhood to adulthood as a wife when I was a wife as a parent.

 

15:15

I’ve been in that survival mode and being in that survival mode, you know, we all talk about, yo, I’ve got to be strong up, got to be tough.

 

But in those modes, I mean, I lost myself 100%.

 

I was so focused on how to career a great beautiful daughter.

 

She’s wonderful.

 

But who was I?

 

What was I doing?

 

15:37

And I was just what I learned was we, we often, we don’t do it on purpose.

 

We get stuck in these modes of survival.

 

And when you’re trying to survive, you’re really not living.

 

And that’s where there was four years ago, I went through always, like I said, struggled, you know, and just been in that fight, fight mode, not where I’m fighting everything, but just like, man, you just got to make things happen.

 

You know, I can’t fail.

 

I can’t do this.

 

16:05

Four years ago, I went through a divorce, really, really bad divorce.

 

And I was 30, me and my daughter kicked out of our home right at the beginning of COVID.

 

All of my business was shut down, you know, construction.

 

There was nothing going on kicked out of our home.

 

And in that moment, everything that I knew was gone.

 

And from my home to being a wife, my daughter, we lived in a hotel for several months.

 

16:39

She went to college.

 

I mean, even my dog died for 15 years.

 

So a girl was like stripped down to nothing.

 

I had nowhere else to go.

 

And I really, and in that time, you know, we can’t get away from ourselves.

 

A lot of times we do things to distract ourselves.

 

16:59

We do things, you know, as a husband, a wife, as a mother, because we don’t want to stop and work on ourselves.

 

We don’t want to stop and look what’s really going on inside of us.

 

But when God puts you through these things so you can get to your purpose, you have to allow that stripping of everything down.

 

I mean, you don’t want to build back up with the same shit on the bottom.

 

I mean, eventually, eventually resurfaces.

 

So I took that time, that time of, instead of feeling sorry for myself, instead of going back in that fight mode and survival mode.

 

17:35

I had to, who is Courtney?

 

What is she about?

 

What excites her?

 

What motivates her?

 

What keeps her going when all of these things that I’ve lived for when they’re gone?

 

Because they were gone.

 

17:48

Right.

 

So trying the typical, what everybody does, okay, I’m God, love God, believe in God 100%, but not everything looks the same as what everything looks.

 

You know, I’m going to go to the church.

 

I’m going to go to counseling.

 

I went through all these steps to become my best me because I knew that’s what I needed.

 

And it wasn’t until I went on this journey, an awakening journey, I call it awakening of the soul, practicing Ayahuasca, that it really allowed me to go deep and address what had me in that survival mode for my entire life.

 

18:29

And not until I was able to address that and really see it and understand that the past is dark, it’s deep.

 

I don’t necessarily have to keep reliving that or reminding myself of that to be who I am today.

 

Right.

 

And not allowing what’s going to happen tomorrow or what am I going to do tomorrow?

 

What’s going on?

 

Not allowing that.

 

18:50

I’m really focused on, you’ll hear me all the time now.

 

When moments come up, be here now, be here now, be here now, because that’s all I can do is control what’s going on now.

 

Right.

 

So I think my biggest turning point was quieting all the noise outside of me.

 

What people think, what people say, you know, you’re divorced or you have nothing, you’re starting over and everybody wants to.

 

And really just digging into myself, my faith and God and what worked for me, not being worried about what worked for other people was my big turning point for me to be the best and to be where I am today and to learn and know my purpose.

 

19:36

And in that, it has allowed my business to grow tremendously.

 

It’s allowed me.

 

At this age, this point in my life, I feel the freest, most fulfilled that I’ve ever felt in my life.

 

And it’s all just because I stripped it all down, allowed it to be stripped down.

 

And I took that time, really took that time to build myself back up.

 

You know, that is, I think that is something, I will just talk about me again.

 

20:06

But that is something that I struggle with is, nobody enjoys the pruning.

 

No.

 

Right.

 

I mean, that’s when you really get your ass kicked.

 

For sure.

 

You know, there’s a, there’s a prayer called the Prayer of J. Bess.

 

20:20

And so back in the day, when I actually went to church, instead of just relied more on spirituality, I remember we had a, had a book study about this book.

 

Called the Prayer of J. Bess.

 

And it talked about the necessity for the pruning so that the future blooms could be better than they’ve ever had.

 

But nobody wants to go through that process or understanding that that is just part of the process.

 

Right.

 

You know, that there are times when I’ve got to learn certain lessons.

 

20:50

So I made big believer in karma and, you know, so what you put out there, you’re going to get that.

 

And, and so part of that is like doing things.

 

Charitably, whether it is time or money or whatever where, you know, nobody else knows about that.

 

Right.

 

And it’s nobody else’s business.

 

Yeah.

 

21:10

And if I turn it around and make it a look-at-me kind of thing, well, that does – does away with, you know, what it’s about.

 

That’s exactly right.

 

But it’s the same thing with other things, you know, I think it’s, it’s very easy to get caught up in those roles or get caught up in certain trappings, you know, whether it’s, you know, people get derailed by different things, whether it’s, you know, booze or money or sex or whatever shining

 

glibly, you know, and exactly.

 

And I like sparkly.

 

Yeah.

 

21:44

You know, so I like it.

 

But it can’t be what I am all about because if it does, then it’s hollow.

 

There’s nothing for sure.

 

There is nothing left inside.

 

If that is what it is truly about.

 

Right.

 

21:59

And so it’s super easy to get caught up in that instead of focusing, you know, how can I truly serve my fellow man, but within the parameters of healthy bound.

 

Yes.

 

That’s exactly.

 

Yeah.

 

That’s 100%.

 

Right.

 

22:17

So there’s, there is a, you know, there’s a saying in the recovery community.

 

You know, we carry the message.

 

We don’t carry the alcoholic.

 

Right.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, so you can’t do it for someone.

 

22:30

And it’s the same thing.

 

And I mean, that’s just an extreme example that applies to me.

 

But that is an example, I think that carries over into every aspect of life.

 

You know, you can see somebody struggling like hell, you know, and really suffering.

 

But you can’t make them take the steps that you believe they need to take.

 

You know, you’re right.

 

22:52

And I think you, you, you really setting those boundaries.

 

Yeah.

 

That’s a hard thing.

 

I mean, I’ve dealt with that in the past setting those boundaries where.

 

And those come from where you learn how to, for me, they came from learning how to, like I said, going back.

 

They were somewhere along the way where I saw myself as less than.

 

23:16

Sure.

 

We all do it.

 

At some point.

 

We feel like we don’t fit in where they were not qualified or not.

 

And somewhere along that way, when I found myself as less than that’s when I allowed boundaries to be broken in those things.

 

I think when we’re going through these things as they always come up, someone’s always going to try to, you know, go past the boundary or you allow it.

 

23:40

Not really people sometimes, such as who they are and what they are.

 

You know, they said they don’t know any better, but maybe they don’t.

 

But it’s also up to us.

 

But, you know, we can’t, we can’t play victim to people that have crossed our boundaries.

 

We have to be responsible for those boundaries and the way, a way to get those is to, it comes with confidence, self love, awareness, awakening to be able to protect that and not in a bitter or have a wall up or, you know, no emotion type of way.

 

But just what’s wrong with selling someone, my biggest thing.

 

24:15

Now I’ll tell anyone business personally.

 

Hey, I just don’t think we’re aligned.

 

Those are probably thinking, what is she talking about?

 

It’s my easiest way to say is like, “You’re not for me and I’m not for you.”

 

And that’s cool.

 

I respect you in your space.

 

24:28

But I’m going to respect myself as well.

 

But it didn’t come until I was able to break myself down and realize what was allowing me to allow those boundaries to be crossed.

 

And now to set them and stand by them.

 

And like I said, love myself and be aware of what works for me.

 

That may not work for other people.

 

You know, and that’s, that’s, I think that is so important and difficult because I can be lonely.

 

24:58

Very.

 

And well, and as I sit here though, when I look at, when I’ve allowed my boundaries to be violated.

 

Okay.



One, I’ve allowed it to happen.

 

Right.

 

But the whole reason that I am allowing it to happen is because I want someone to think better of me.

CONCERN 

 

25:17

If I do this, which goes against my core values.

 

Right.

 

And it might be helping this person who says that they need help or doing whatever that is for the benefit of someone else.

 

But I’m like, this isn’t right.

 

Yeah.

 

I should not be doing this for them.

 

25:34

This is stressing me out.

 

It’s not even my deal.

 

Yeah.



Right.

 

You know, a perfect, perfect example is, you know, loaning money to those that are closest to you.

 

Right.

 

25:43

You know, don’t do it unless you can view it as a gift.

 

And you don’t.

 

Yeah.

 

And you’re not going to see it as a result.

 

Yeah.

 

For sure.

 

25:49

Because then all you’re doing is you’re harming the relationship.

 

Right.

 

And someone might be pissed at you in the process of you saying no.

 

Right.

 

But actually what you’re doing is you’re, you know, you’re harming the relationship by saying yes. 100%. For sure.

 

Yeah.

 

26:05

Because you’re resentful.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

So.

 

26:11

It’s just amazing to me how those kind of lessons continue to pop up until I have learned the lesson of don’t do that.

 

Right.

 

It’s like, you know, I have what I, what I refer to as white knight syndrome.

 

Okay.

 

You know, I want to ride in on my white horse and save the day.

 

Right.

 

26:32

You know, and, and most of the time, that is not my job.

 

And most of the time, the people that you do that for have absolutely no appreciation for it.

 

I am 100% convinced.

 

And then you’re like, what?

 

I did all that.

 

I did this.

 

26:49

That’s right.

 

Yeah.

 

I am convinced that is where the saying of no good deed goes unfinished.

 

For sure.

 

Originates from.

 

Yes.

 

26:56

You know, because I’ll see that.

 

And I will, I will do that.

 

I’ll do, for example, I’ll do that on a pro bono situation where I’m going to go in and oh, I know I shouldn’t do this.

 

But I’m going to help this person.

 

And they are the most ungrateful individuals.

 

Think that the world owes them everything and has absolutely no self awareness about.

 

27:19

You’re not a victim in everything that happens.

 

Or if you really think that you are, then what’s the common denominator?

 

It’s you.

 

The Bob brings the whole yes.

 

You know, I mean, it’s amazing.

 

Right.

 

27:35

You know, I will have people that walk in and will do that.

 

And, and it’s like, yeah, do you take responsibility for anything?

 

Right. 100%.

 

But that’s what I meant when I said setting these boundaries off.

 

I’ve felt it’s been lonely in a good way.

 

Right.

 

27:54

Because it really, when you.

 

Like, I don’t mind saying no now.

 

Right.

 

So, I mean, that means that they’re probably going to be pissed that I said no, but okay, well, they’re probably not going to call.

 

They’re probably.

 

But that’s what I mean by you have to be comfortable, which I think we both kind of.

 

28:10

Learned how to set those parameters because it can be very lonely, feebling.

 

Right.

 

Because a lot of times these boundaries, we let them down because we want to be accepted or because we want to save the day or we want to be loved or there’s something missing.

 

So when you set up these boundaries until someone knows and then they don’t ring your phone again.

 

Well, first off, that tells you their motives were off.

 

Right.

 

28:30

And, but it feels lonely in the beginning.

 

Yeah.

 

When you start setting these boundaries in your eye, how all these things we do to improve ourself feel horrible.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Well, and you get for, I get a warning about it.

 

28:43

Right.

 

Because I am a big believer in what my get.

 

Oh, yes.

 

Yes.

 

And that’s the way I am a big believer that God talks to me in that way.

 

And every time I go against what my God is telling me, it’s a shit show.

 

28:57

Why didn’t I?

 

Yeah.

 

And it’s like, I knew.

 

I knew.

 

You had a ton of warning there.

 

Yeah.

 

29:03

You know, I was sitting there telling you don’t do it.

 

Don’t do it.

 

No, no, no.

 

I can make it work.

 

I can do it.

 

I can fit.

 

29:10

That’s ego.

 

We are ego.

 

Man, it can get the best of us.

 

Well, you know, I think anybody who thought God didn’t have a sense of humor.

 

I mean, who wants the happiest you can be is when you were living in God’s will.

 

Right.

 

29:25

But I’m going to give you free will.

 

Right.

 

So you got to give it back to you.

 

It’s like, wait a second.

 

How do I get it?

 

Yeah.

 

29:32

It’s a trick.

 

Yeah.

 

It’s like that doesn’t logically make a lot of sense.

 

Yeah.

 

But that’s when I met my most comfortable is when I feel like I am aligned.

 

And for me, that is where, you know, I am in concert with what my gut tells me on stuff.

 

29:50

When I go against it, I have more turmoil.

 

I feel more disjointed, disconnected.

 

I am not as nice to be around.

 

Things are coming out sideways.

 

And it’s always coming out at those that are closest to us.

 

Right?



30:09

Because who you’re really pissed off at or who I am really pissed off at is me.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, but who I’m taking it out on is, you know, where’s my next victim?

 

Who’s the next person that’s walking in here?

 

You know, that it’s going to come out that way.

 

Right.

 

30:24

So, you know, I know an area that I constantly have to wrestle with is perfectionism.

 

You know, and it’s hard for me from a professional standpoint because I want things done a certain way.

 

I want to make sure that we represent people in a certain way.

 

But one of the things that I’ve had to learn and I continue to learn over and over again is just because it’s not my way.

 

Right.

 

It doesn’t mean that it’s wrong.

 

30:57

Right.

 

It just means that it’s different.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, now sometimes it’s not right.

 

Right.

 

I’m not going to go along with that.

 

31:06

Yeah.

 

But a lot of the time, different is just different.

 

Yeah, you saw this.

 

And I think it’s about stopping and listening for a minute, looking.

 

And then from that point, seeing if it does a line or doesn’t align with what you’re doing or what your purpose is or what you’re serving or what you want to represent.

 

Right.

 

31:24

That’s who you are, who your business is for sure.

 

Well, and that’s, you know, that’s one of the things.

 

So I started Scroggins Law Group six, a little over six years ago on February 1st, which was also my parents anniversary before my dad died and it’s my anniversary.

 

Right.

 

Now, so there’s a lot of meaning to that date for me, but it was to create a law firm or family law boutique that is different in that.

 

Right.

 

31:48

I don’t want to say yes to everybody.

 

Right.

 

You know, I don’t want to represent everybody.

 

We’re not for everybody.



And when you do that, you have, just like people want to pick us to serve them in business.

 

Right.

 

32:01

I’ve realized I want to pick who I work with and who my clients are as well.

 

And when I’ve started doing that, it’s kind of so much more peaceful.

 

I’m not frantic.

 

I’m not feeling anxious, anxiety.

 

It’s – I choose who I want to work with.

 

And if it aligns with me, and it’s it’s so crazy that I can turn around because we all we feel like a lot of times in business that we have to serve everyone that calls us or everyone that wants our services or everyone that says they need us.

 

32:28

Right.

 

But if you just stop for a minute, listen to them, listen to who they are as a person, what they’re doing in their business, how they do handle their business, how they handle other people.

 

It tells you how they’re going to handle you, how they’re going to handle their transactions with you.

 

Do they pay you?

 

Do they talk to you crazy?

 

All types of things like that.

 

32:46

And with what you’re saying, I think it also comes with all of this, you know, setting boundaries, not just personally, but in business to choose those that we want to surround ourselves with and work with.

 

And, you know, that makes a big difference anyways.

 

Right.

 

You know, who you’re working with.

 

Well, and I think.

 

Who you are as a person.

 

33:05

Absolutely.

 

I mean, because one of, you know, I will tell people watch their feet.

 

Yeah.

 

Okay.

 

Everybody’s got this or not everybody, but a lot of people have this.

 

Right.

 

33:15

The gift of gab, right?

 

Right.

 

They can talk a good game.

 

Yeah.

 

But do the feet match up with the game that they are talking and what my experience has been is that for most people, that’s a no.

 

Correct.

 

33:27

Okay.

 

Correct.

 

Okay.

 

So, you know, I picked the people who I choose to have as mentors in different areas of my life.

 

Okay.

 

And they allowed me to choose them with it wasn’t where I set up the parameters of exactly what this relationship was going to be or how we were going to do things because I’m coming to them for a reason.

 

33:49

Right.

 

Yeah.

 

So, it’s basically, if you want what I’ve got, are you willing to do what I did?

 

Right.

 

You know, so it’s kind of the same thing for me professionally in a lawsuit where I can say, I can help you get from point A to point B. Yeah.

 

If you are willing to do X, Y and Z, are you willing to do that?

 

34:11

Right.

 

Well, when you see somebody that deviates from that, that’s when you get your real answer.

 

It’s easy to say yes.

 

Right.

 

You know, but when they’re not and they continue to do it over and over, you know, that’s where you’re left with a difficult choice.

 

For sure. 100%.

 

34:27

And especially in, you know, in personal relationships.

 

Oh, yeah.

 

You know, so if, you know, if you’ve got someone that is in your life that is a soul sucker, you know, I think we’ve all had them or probably been one.

 

Yeah, exactly.

 

And some of that is, you know, I’m not talking about somebody just in a dip going through a difficult time.

 

Right.

 

34:50

That’s, you know, I think that’s one of the areas that we really get the opportunity to be a good friend.

 

Oh, for sure.

 

Or a good partner or whatever.

 

But it’s when, you know, that person who you only hear from them when they need something.

 

Yeah.

 

Mm hmm.

 

35:05

And it’s always when, you know, everything is a disaster.

 

Right.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, oh, now I’m really willing.

 

But then you take the time to help, but then they still don’t.

 

And then they disappear.

 

35:19

That’s called.

 

You know what those are called?

 

What’s that?

 

Ask holes.

 

I’m gonna, I’m just telling you I’m stealing that.

 

They are called.

 

35:29

Ask holes.

 

Ask holes.

 

Call you.

 

Ask all the questions.

 

Yeah, yeah, I’m going to do it.

 

I got it.

 

35:34

I got it.

 

And you’ve told them 15 times and they turn right around and do the same shit.

 

They’ve always done to get themselves in a situation.

 

That’s, you know, and I stay away from those because like you said, they will drain you.

 

So like, I don’t have time to repeat myself 20 times.

 

Right.

 

35:50

So if it didn’t work for you the first time or if you didn’t take my advice, I’m saying it’s right.

 

Or it’s the perfect thing for you.

 

But then stop asking me the same question.

 

And again, it’s me going, I’ve already told them that listen, I’m not picking up the sun.

 

You know.

 

So that’s, I think that’s something else that’s really important is understanding that that’s a boundary that you are setting for yourself.

 

36:10

Yeah.

 

For self preservation.

 

And that’s okay.



Right.

 

Yeah.

 

Because there’s something unhealthy in society that gives this idea that it’s almost like you shouldn’t have any boundaries.

 

36:25

People are now boundaries have become a buzzword.

 

Yes.

 

In the last few years and setting healthy boundaries.

 

And, but what does that actually mean?

 

And when people understand it’s, I can only do so much.

 

I’m here up to a point.

 

36:40

Yeah.

 

But that’s all I can do.

 

That’s all I have to give.

 

And there’s a societal piece.

 

I think that tells us, no, no, no, you’ve got to give more.

 

You’ve got to do.

 

36:50

And it’s like they’re calling me because they need, they need you.

 

I mean, but there are days, man.

 

You just need yourself.

 

There are days when I have nothing else to give someone.

 

And when ask hole rings my phone, I’m not answering, you know, because you’ve all right.

 

I mean, you’ve sucked 15 other times that we’ve had that.

 

37:09

So I think, like what you said, boundaries are an individual thing and they have to be.

 

We can’t think our boundaries have to match everyone else’s and they can come across sometimes as like what you said as, or your cold or you don’t show any motions.

 

You don’t like I’ve learned right now.

 

I have to through all of these other past experiences and lessons.

 

I have to put myself first.

 

And if I don’t do that, I’m no good to anyone else.

 

37:39

Right.

 

So that is really I stand by that now.

 

And more than I’ve never done that in my life.

 

Let’s talk about that a little bit because I think that something like I was talking about just a minute ago that societally we talk about those boundaries and taking care of yourself.

 

But then you get that same message that, well, don’t pay attention to what I just said over here.

 

I’m not taking care of yourself.

 

38:06

You need to be there to help everybody else.

 

And you do need to be there.

 

I think you do need to be there to help people and to serve your fellow mayor.

 

But how do you figure out where that line of demarcation is because that’s a struggle for me anyway.

 

You know, that’s hard.

 

And you know, and I feel like a complete jackass when I say no.

 

38:33

So no, right.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, so how do you go about figuring that out?

 

It’s hard.

 

And I think every situation is going to be different because sometimes it’s someone in business.

 

Sometimes it’s a loved one.

 

38:45

Someone I mean, sometimes it’s a long time friend.

 

And I’ll just keep going back to once we have really sat down and aligned ourselves first.

 

That’s when we can.

 

It’s not going to say we’re not going to have moments where we feel like a butthole, but we can really follow through with what our boundaries are and what our wants are first.

 

And that often comes across selfish and uncaring and all these other words that people want to use.

 

But when you go back to anyone, if they’re not okay with themselves, they’re literally destroying themselves trying to fit into this mold of what everybody else needs or wants at that time.

 

39:31

So you’ve got to learn how to say no for the benefit of yourself.

 

And it’s you have to.

 

There’s a re at the end of the day, there’s a reason you’re not able to set boundaries.

 

And that’s what you have to look at.

 

There’s a reason that you can’t say no to people.

 

Those are there’s something underlying there that is causing you to not have boundaries or to not take up for yourself or not to stand up for yourself or not to say, Hey, I need me time right now.

 

40:00

There’s something that is underlying right there.

 

And I think we all are responsible for going back and looking at that and figuring out what that is so that we can be our best selves and be confident enough to tell other people.

 

Listen, I just I’m sorry.

 

I don’t have any more of me to give right now.

 

There’s nothing wrong with.

 

I mean, that’s normal.

 

40:24

How many times have you ran yourself to death for everyone else?

 

And everyone else told the great, but you feel like shit.

 

I mean, that happens constantly.

 

You do it in your relationships.

 

You do it in business.

 

And if you were to pick up the phone and call those people, they wouldn’t answer or wouldn’t be there to do crap for you.

 

40:41

And it’s not a thing where it’s a tit for tat, but we get so caught up in that underlying thing that’s causing us to do that.

 

Right.

 

That we really need to.

 

I advise anyone.

 

You know, you have to stop and become aware of yourself, which is really, really hard and lonely and painful.

 

It can be painful.

 

41:05

Absolutely.

 

But you have to do that in order to be the best you feel the best and fulfill your purpose.

 

Otherwise, you’re just you’re just going along through the motion.

 

You’re surviving.

 

You’re not living for sure.

 

I completely agree with that.

 

41:20

And it’s it’s hard now with, you know, one of the areas that really hits me a lot and thank God I’m the age I am because I am not prey to it like, like, I’m not.

 

Like others are, but the duality of social media.

 

Yeah.

 

Okay.

 

You’ve got now.

 

There are more and more studies that have gone on that show that, you know, Gen Z specifically and.

 

41:49

Oh, God.

 

What was the millennials to have an issue with depression related to that and an inability to truly establish relationships because everything is right here.

 

And then the problem is, you know, you’ve got an aspect of social media, which is, look at me.

 

Look at me.

 

Look at me.

 

Right.

 

42:10

And all that is is a snapshot in time.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, of an event.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, and 100%.

 

And a lot of it is created for a specific purpose where people, you know, have the ability once you have enough following that you can monetize it.

 

42:26

Right.

 

So boy, I better look good and I better do this.

 

Oh, look at me on the swing in Valley.

 

You know, you don’t know Jack should about what their life is and how they feel and what makes them tick.

 

I mean, do they have a hollow existence?

 

Or are they really pleased with who they are as a person?

 

42:44

Are they spending six hours a day taking pictures of themselves all day every day?

 

Yeah.

 

You know, and then you’ve got everybody else that’s looking at those that is, you know, oh, I better heart that.

 

I better like this.

 

I better do do that.

 

And then these people that are sucked at, well, why isn’t my life like that?

 

43:04

My life isn’t as good.

 

And it’s like, you know, anything about what their life is.

 

Yeah.

 

So you’re comparing your insides to other people’s outsides.

 

You’re right.

 

And, you know, I don’t know how we get past the duality of it because right now, I mean, you know, it’s just, you know, cranky old man, curmudgeon.

 

43:21

Yeah.

 

Kind of shit.

 

Get off my lawn.

 

You know, kind of stuff.

 

If I say something about that, but it scares me to death with the comparison like that.

 

And it’s like, you don’t know what makes that person tick.

 

43:41

You don’t know if they are happy or not.

 

You know, I’ve been really poor and I’ve been pretty well off.

 

I like pretty well off better.

 

For sure.

 

Yeah.

 

But it doesn’t solve your problems.

 

43:55

You know, if you are just an asshole, you know, you can just be exactly.

 

That’s exactly right.

 

I mean, you know, I loved one of the, one of the sayings that Robin Williams had, which was that cocaine is God’s way of telling you you’re making too much money.

 

Right.

 

You know, and, you know, I have represented plenty of trust babies.

 

Okay.

 

44:19

I can tell you that their problems are not any different than anybody else.

 

And the problem is, is that they’ve got the resources to be able to fund whatever kind of debauchery they want to get into trying to fix themselves at the moment.

 

If I’ve got to feel good now, right?

 

You know, and that’s great.

 

You feel good now.

 

Yeah.

 

44:40

What do you feel like in half an hour?

 

Right.

 

What you’re coming down from that.

 

You feel like when you lay your head on at night.

 

That’s right.

 

Can you look in the mirror?

 

44:46

Can you look in the mirror? 100%.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, I think identity is a big struggle at some point in anyone’s life.

 

As a child that may be, you know, how do I fit in at school?

 

Right.

 

45:00

Both of the same parents that look the same.

 

Do I have a mom and a dad?

 

Do my parents do what they do?

 

My hair is frizzy, crazy.

 

What, you know, there’s always, even as adults, you know, people are always trying to find out where do I fit in.

 

Right.

 

45:18

And that comes with, I think, social media.

 

Like you said, it stems around a lot of putting this stigma out there.

 

It’s like, oh, look at me.

 

Do you want to be like me?

 

Do you want to be like this?

 

But when you’re not loving yourself, when you haven’t aligned with yourself, when you’re, when you’re truly not living your purpose, those that identity ego is what I call it.

 

45:44

Oh, it’s always going to get in the way.

 

It’s always going to have you second guessing yourself.

 

It’s always going to have you allowing people to run over you because you think that that’s going to get you where you need to get.

 

I’ll say, and I’ll say it a thousand times over, being confident in who you are, knowing your purpose, and doing what is best to be you.

 

It can be lonely, and that’s what most people fear.

CONCERN 

 

It’s being alone and not identifying with other people.

 

46:17

But in these last, probably three to four years where I’ve been alone, lost everything, felt like I did not identify with anyone.

 

I felt that way, growing up, same in business.

 

I don’t mesh well with everyone.

 

I don’t look your typical person in construction.

 

Right.

 

But when I started loving myself and being confident in who I was, which takes work, that’s when I don’t care, but I don’t care.



46:49

And that takes all of us going through things and being willing to continue to grow through them as you go and stop and going, okay, what is this trying to teach me?

 

What am I going to take from this?

 

How am I going to become better?

 

What am I going to learn not to do again in this situation?

 

So I’m not making repeat mistakes and going like that, but it really, anything, identity, self love, setting in rollboxes, all of that comes from that pressure of society, social media, making us think or us allowing it to make us think we have to be this way, and that’s the only way to be.

 

That’s a hard deal to get your hands around, because talking about the 20-something that’s swinging on a beautiful swing over the ocean in Valley.

 

47:46

Hell, I’ve never been to Valley yet.

 

I am dying to go to Valley.

 

I hope they have a swing that will hold me.

 

But a lot of people, it’s like, I want that.

 

Are you willing to walk the journey that it takes to get that?

 

Because it’s almost not almost.

 

48:04

I’m going to take that out.

 

It is a sense of entitlement.

 

And a lot of people think, “I need to quit doing that.”

 

I need to just say, what I thought for a long time was that I had these expectations.

 

I would set goals and then I’d achieve them, and then it’d be like, okay, this isn’t what I thought it was.

 

If I do this, then I’ve made it.

 

48:30

And then I achieved that, and it’s like, well, that wasn’t an idea.

 

So I better do this.

 

So all of those things are hollow unless you can really be in the moment, I think, to enjoy it.

 

So it seems to me that everything is, the one constant we have is change.

 

You’re correct.

 

And that you can fight it all you want, but it’s going to happen regardless.

 

48:57

So you better learn to get comfortable with it.

 

But for me to truly get comfortable with who I am, it’s figuring out what’s really important to me.

 

Is it working four days a week?

 

Is it that I want to retire at the age of 58?

 

It’s not.

 

I couldn’t imagine what I’d be doing.

 

49:19

It’s like figuring out what really makes me tick and what’s important to me.

 

But you have to know your, in order to answer those questions, what makes me tick, what you have to know yourself.

 

And truly stand by who you know and who you’ve become and who you want to be.

 

And that’s what you said.



In order to make those things tick, you have to start with that, which is putting in a word, knowing yourself, standing by protecting it and then staying aligned with that.

 

Right.

 

49:58

Well, and I think there’s also a big piece of, you know, that changes too.

 

As we get older, everything, your perspective changes.

 

It’s like the old saying of, you know, youth is wasted on the young.

 

Yeah.

 

You know, because you don’t have the, you don’t have the life experience there.

 

It’s like, so after I got divorced, I didn’t start dating a bunch of, you know, really young girls.

 

50:25

Because my experience with dating someone that was a whole lot younger than I, they didn’t have the life experience.

 

And so it’s like, what are we going to talk about?

 

Yeah.

 

You know, I remember a number of years ago, we had a, had a young associate and, and I was telling her, I was so excited.

 

I was going out to Vegas and we were going to see Billie Idol and concert and House of Blues out there.

 

And she just looked at me, dear in the headlights, like, I’m like, you have no idea who I’m talking about.

 

50:52

Right.

 

Yeah.

 

And she goes, no.

 

I know we’re Vegas.

 

Yeah.

 

Exactly.

 

50:57

Can you not know Billie Idol?

 

You know, but I mean, that’s the whole thing is everything changes as we get older.

 

So understanding that my perspective on things is going to change too.

 

Right.

 

And that I have to be willing to walk the journey to obtain whatever it is I’m seeking to obtain, you know, whether that is, you know, greater self awareness, whether it’s to be able to do ex philanthropically, whether it’s able to do this for family, whatever it is.

 

Yeah.

 

51:31

And your journey is not going to, your journey will never match anyone else’s.

 

And if you’re trying to align your journey to be a certain way of what you see someone else doing or whatever, it will never, there’s no way for you to stay on that path.

 

Right.

 

You know, I mean, it’s just really, it’s really hard to maintain that.

 

Yes.

 

You know, because it’s not really who you are.

 

51:57

It’s not the road you want to be taking.

 

Well, and things are things are not always as they appear.

 

Right.

 

You know, there there’s been something that I’ve actually liked seeing on social media a little lately.

 

There was one showing of a shot towards the pyramids.

 

And then just you turn away from that.

 

52:15

And most people don’t realize how close the pyramids are to actually downtown Cairo.

 

Right.

 

And that, oh, there’s a McDonald’s and a pizza hut.

 

And, you know, and that kind of crap.

 

But that’s not the vision that you see, or that’s portrayed.

 

You know, so understanding it’s all about figuring out who I am, what works for me.

 

52:40

And just because that’s what works for me doesn’t mean that that’s what works for anybody else.

 

And being okay with that.

 

That’s right.

 

Yeah.

 

That’s right.

 

Well, Courtney, thank you so much for today.

 

52:52

Yeah, this has been a great evening.

 

Thank you.

 

You’re sharing your journey.

 

I mean, it’s beautiful.

 

I really appreciate that.

 

Thank you.

 

53:01

And ditto here.

 

I mean, we’ll become the mutual admiration society here.

 

Yeah.

 

Woo.

 

Everybody go see Courtney because different and willing to speak to all these stories.

 

Isn’t that something new?

 

53:14

So, so thank you again.

 

Yeah.

 

And thank you all for joining us on another episode of the Reclamation Transformation.

 

And remember, change starts with you.

 

So leave your mark.

 

Senior VP of Cresa Dallas, Roy Reis joins divorce attorney Mark Scroggins to discuss financial information gathering dos and don’ts for a divorce and offer negotiation know-how in the legal sphere. Learn what mistakes are often made before or during divorce court and how to ensure that crucial financial evidence is able to be presented in family law proceedings.

Mark Scroggins  

Hey folks, Mark Scroggins with Scroggins Law Group. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the reclamation transformation. Today I have my good friend Roy Reese here, Roy, how you doing?

Roy Reis  

Good to see it’s good to be on it. 

Mark Scroggins  

Great to see you as well. It’s been a long time. I don’t think we’ve really gotten together since prior to COVID. I know. Yeah. Hard to believe. So now. So everybody knows, Roy. We met because when I was looking for a lease that we ended up in this building, actually, and subsequently has helped me with three other leases twice with our Dallas office..

Roy Reis  

Flower Mound, Frisco. I mean, I think you’ve expanded like 63 times since I first met you, Mark, right. I mean, he’s that. I mean, 

Mark Scroggins  

slightly less. 

Roy Reis  

Probably seven real estate transactions in five years. 

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah.

Roy Reis  

But anyways, no, hey, I’m here. I’m here not talking about real estate. I’m here because I like you. Right. We’re buddies. And we’ve had quite the journey the last five years.

Mark Scroggins  

Absolutely. So one of the things we were talking about a little bit before is, you know, differences, you know, pre COVID and post COVID. And, you know, what did you What did you see you know, pre COVID. Let’s talk about from a marriage standpoint. One of the things that I thought, and I’m very lucky I made it through even after being married for a second time my second marriage survive with the success, the success rates on second marriages are significantly lower than first marriages. A lot of people don’t understand that. Okay, yeah, each time you get married, it’s progressively less likely that it will not end in divorce. 

Roy Reis  

Okay, so why is that?

Mark Scroggins  

I think because we get older and set in our ways, and you’re protecting your own money. And so the idea of like, you’re young and naive, and it’s the two of us against the world out there to conquer. By that time, it’s bullshit, this is mine, and what’s mine is mine. And it’s not yours anymore. Okay. You know, so I think that’s what it comes with. And so people also have, they’re less tolerant, okay, about, you know, the kind of stuff they’re going to put up with, especially if they don’t have kids. And so with a lot of marriages, a lot of second marriages, you know, you’ve had an increase in what’s called Gray Divorce these days, which is, I will say, primarily the older 50 crowd, but you know, it can be a little younger than that. And a lot of the time, those folks, it’s on a second marriage, and they haven’t been married as long and they don’t share kids. And so you can think of all of the issues of the Brady, the Brady Bunch was a great sitcom from the 70s. But I don’t think it works out like that the vast majority.

Roy Reis  

It’s not, it’s not, you know, the, the sitcom of the 70s. So everybody should get married, like me, at 24, after dating for six months, and be married, going on 16 years in July, I was 7/7/07. Right? Kind of easy to remember with two kids. So I was young, I was dumb. I was poor. And it was us against the world. And now I’m just a little bit older, dumb, maybe a little bit more money, and it’s still us against the world. It’s been fun.

Mark Scroggins  

you know, it amazes me because that you basically prescribed, what I can say a lot of my client bases. And that is that they only dated for a period of six months. So y’all are really kind of an anomaly in that situation where you don’t know each other. That well, then again, I think if you date too long, it can be a situation where you will never get married. Yeah, that’s just you know, that’s my opinion. I’m not siding. 

Roy Reis  

What’s interesting with ours is our principles were very aligned. Right? In fact, so I met her at church, okay. And actually, like a real church, not like a bar that was called a church, because I met some people are like, Oh, we met at church. And that was actually a bar around the corner from my interest. 

Mark Scroggins  

That’s a great idea. It’s a great talk about your other business things.

Roy Reis  

I guess they would tell their kids that one day we met, we met at church, but we actually met at church and had a lot of the same principles in alignment. That doesn’t mean that there wasn’t challenges and difficulties, but our principles, who we were was fundamentally aligned, which was helpful.

Mark Scroggins  

I think that is so that is I’m so glad you mentioned that because I think that is incredibly important and something that people today and when I say today, I’m not talking just about in 2023, but I’m talking about over the last 15 years that people have kind of gotten away from they don’t always know what’s important to to each other.

Roy Reis  

So like I thought Jessica was really just into looks right? like I really thought she was I thought she was shallow and was just into it. And then write it well, how could she not? And that’s what I say. But really it was really her principles and who I was. 

Mark Scroggins  

So do regret turning down Magic Mike?

Roy Reis  

Yeah, you know, it was it was the money we just won, right? The contract wasn’t there. But you know, it sounds crazy. When we do go through tough times, to found the foundation is actually not built on shallow things. And I feel like so many people that I meet, if you marry for money, let me tell you something, there will never be enough money. If you marry for looks, there will always be somebody else. That’s pretty, or, Hey, guess what, when you get older, and that little gray starts coming in, and I’m up 15 pounds this past year for whatever, like, you realize that hey, this person still loves me for who I am, not what I think I am. I don’t know that that was an interesting dynamic for us in marriage.

Mark Scroggins  

Well, I think you you, you know, hit it on the nose that that is how, you know, it’s like you you hear about there? There’s the saying of people being equally yoked. Yeah, you know, which it shows where I from, because that is the old, you know, agricultural aspect of making sure that you’ve got two bowls that are equally yoked so you can have them go in a straight line so they don’t pull off center. Okay. So you can tell I worked in the fields as a youngster. 

Roy Reis  

I think that maybe your your church upbringing. 

Mark Scroggins  

Could be that too.

Roy Reis  

 I’ve heard that you’ve maybe heard that a time or two in church as a kid. 

Mark Scroggins  

I did hear that in church a time or two. So growing up in the Episcopalian Church and talking about being equally yoked, and it’s interesting, because my current wife and I are very equally yoked from the standpoint that we’re both incredibly spiritual, have a you know, have a belief in God. But yeah, struggle with organized religion and so it’s a little, it’s different. Now. My ex wife had a childlike faith that I was just envious of, that’s just not my story, not how it worked for me. But, but making sure you are equally yoked and especially along the lines of what you talked about, you know, are you all in agreement about wanting kids not wanting kids? Are you in agreement on financial aspects? You know, is someone a spender is someone to saver?

Roy Reis  

Look, one of the things that I’ve learned it’s so great. In a marriage, it’s really worked out for me. What’s mine is hers and what’s hers is hers. That works out really well, too. I’m just kidding but you know, marriage is not 50/50 marriages is 100/100 . I’ve seen a breakdown in people’s marriage, where somebody’s 100 And somebody’s like, negative 100 or even 90. You know, by the way, you can be 99% that 1% Right, go have a fling with somebody. You know, it’s crazy. Like, you just saw this prostitution ring in Frisco and southwest, right? 

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah. 

Roy Reis  

And you know, so many times. We think all of these bad things were in the suburbs, right? You’re in Dallas too. But Flower Mound, Frisco, Plano. We feel like we live in this protected life where we live in this perfect bubble, right? Talk about COVID. And what I’ve seen the last three years, is things just get shattered. And so if what everybody that had a perfect facade, they had a very pretty veneer, right, but they actually behind it was really.. you ever seen teeth, that actually when they take off the veneer, what it looks like how they saw it down and put it’s actually like the ugliest looking smile ever. Right? And that’s probably the way most people’s lives really are behind closed doors. It’s really ugly. It’s really messy. their personal lives are really tough. You know, I was listening this morning on the radio, and they were saying that the average debt in America is $7,000 of credit card debt. But what that doesn’t take into account that’s the average across every American. So really, what happens is the people that have debt actually have 15,000 the other people have zero. You take a job, and people cannot pay that off. There’s financial strain. There’s the appearance of I’ve got to keep up with the Joneses. I’ve got to wear the nice sport coat wear the right watch. We just came back from spring break. And I am so sick and tired of people asking me where are we are on spring break. You know why? You know what they want to know what they want to talk about? Where they went on spring? They went? “The powder was gonna be a little light in Vail in Aspen so we decided to do a beach vacation. You know, we’re really kind of 50/50 on it. Because you know, last time we were in the grand cave…” and I’m like look you don’t care about my vacation. All you all you wanted to do was tell me about yours. And oh, by the way, you probably wanted to, like, take 17 pictures and you had to like live feed them And then you had to congregate all of the best pictures and then put those on Instagram. Like we live in a really, really fake world. And what I’ve, what I’ve gone through the last few years is, look, you and I’ve gotten to know each other. I know your story, you know, my story, but my story is, I’m a guy that put himself through SMU which community college first put myself through SMU, and I always felt like I should be bringing myself up by the bootstraps. Like, I’ve got to go make it. I’ve got to go, like I’ve got to perform, right. I always felt like I had to perform, and even doing leases with people. If the terms aren’t right, man, oh, well, I got to figure out how to make them right. Like, sometimes a deal just doesn’t work. And that’s, that’s okay. And I’ve got to be able to say, hey, you know, what, we weren’t able to achieve this wasn’t anything that I’m not a good negotiator. I’m not good at sales. This is what the deal is. And this is what you need to know, because you’re gonna live here too, right? But what I would say is, I’ve learned to strip off that veneer and say, I’m so tired of getting my love and acceptance insecurity from performing all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I just can’t, like I can’t perform to please every man and I can’t perform to show off. I can’t, I don’t want to go on a vacation because you went to the Grand Cayman, well, I need to go stay at the Ritz, it’s crazy and this is the way people are living and there’s a complete breakdown in society right now.

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah, it’s interesting. You know, I have that conversation with not only family, but with clients a lot of that time too, because it is amazing. 

Roy Reis  

Okay, hold on. Biggest thing I have to ask. Yes. It maybe it’s like, attorney client privilege. You know, I’ve watched enough stuff. What’s the biggest? Is it cheating? Is it money? What is it? How many years?

Mark Scroggins  

Have I been practice? 

Roy Reis  

Yeah. 

Mark Scroggins  

God, this may it’ll be 30 years. Okay. Which means officially I’m old. So

Roy Reis  

I told you that. I told him that a few years ago, by the way, it’s true.

Mark Scroggins  

I was trying to ignore it. You know, my daughter told me at 40 that I should be counting backwards. So officially, I guess I’m 25. I turned 40 this year? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you look good for 40 year old. Yeah. So you know. Yeah. So we’re taping this right. Okay. So, yeah, you look great for 40.

Roy Reis  

Let’s see if you say the same thing next year. Yeah, exactly what I’m worried about..

Mark Scroggins  

Right. You know, so most people think that it’s infidelity that is the greatest cause of divorce. And it’s not its finances. So like, 

Roy Reis  

Really? 

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah, its finances. So typically, you have somebody who’s a spender, and somebody who’s a saver, and they can’t reach an agreement on how they’re going to spend things, and then it can get further out of whack based on if someone’s a stay at home parent. And so you’ve got one person who is earning all of the money. No. But that’s just one part of the puzzle, right, is that they’re earning the money, there needs to be an agreement on how the money is going to be spent. Because in Texas, with Texas, being a community state, that, you know, 100 million dollars that a person earns a year, obviously, I’m using a ridiculous number, you know, but 

Roy Reis  

I told you not to talk about my earnings last year, again, so much for attorney client privilege. lol

Mark Scroggins  

Exactly. Well, you hadn’t paid me 

Roy Reis  

That’s true. 

Mark Scroggins  

But what a person earns, I mean, that person and that person spouse are just as entitled to those monies because it is a community state. So like, one of the first things that I get asked our people should ask in a divorce is how do we get a hold of the financial information that we need for a divorce? How do we go about gathering that information? Yeah, so you want to try to gather what you can prior to actually filing for divorce? So you know, a snapshot in time and know what, what things actually look like. 

Roy Reis  

What’s the biggest mistake that somebody made?

Mark Scroggins  

Don’t start getting into your other spouses, email, text messages, things like that, unless you have been provided with a unless you’ve been provided with their login information, and they know that you are in there because now you get violations of both state and federal wiretapping laws. So that can be huge. 

Roy Reis  

We live in a country with laws in order and so you’ve got to obey by the laws in order.

Mark Scroggins  

You’re supposed to very few do and when they Don’t what you run the risk of is losing the ability to get that evidence, that evidence into evidence. So, in other words, somebody comes to me and they’ve got all this information about their husband’s bonus. Okay. And let’s say he’s gonna get a $2 million bonus because they sold off a part of the company and he has an ownership interest in it. And let’s say there was no other way for her to know about it. Yeah, but she brings all this to me in the initial consultation. Well, unless we can go about finding out that information some other way. That is not going to see the light of day, okay, because it is what is called fruit from the poisonous tree. Okay, it is a violation of certain rules. You can also run into familial torts or marital torts. Okay. A tort is like if you and I got in a car wreck, I T boned you, you sue me, you get a $50,000 award for pain and suffering, right? That’s a that’s a tort that’s negligence, you add those within a marriage to and one of those places would be is if you are invading the other person’s privacy if it gets harassing, if you have these wiretap violations, so there are a whole hell of a lot of different places that you can run into problems. 

Hold on, what is the day in the life like of Mark Scroggins? That’s a better question.

It’s not boring. So family law is drugs, sex, violence, and money.

Roy Reis  

So talk to me about this. And I’ve asked you this before. How do you how do you stay sane? Here’s another question. Have you always have you always done that? How did you cope before? Because look, this is where you and I have really like kind of hit it off, right? I’ve been through my like, life is like we’ve survived. It’s hard. Life is hard. In fact, I remember meeting you. And I was kind of curious, because I’ve met other family law offices. Right. Right, that have wanted me to represent them, right. And I meet them. And I’ve got to be honest with you, like, I just get like this bad vibe about them. And I remember meeting you. And I’ll tell the story. I don’t know if you remember this or not. And I said, Hey, so you’re interviewing me? Very rarely Am I interviewing somebody on a real estate site. But I said, Hey, so tell me about what you do. And I remember you sat down, Mir was there. And you said, Roy, I work with really, really good people on their worst day. And my job is to help them and I was like, whoa, okay, I like this guy. Right? Because look, married 15 years. Love my wife, we’re gonna be right where it is us against the world. I feel like it back. But but like, I mean, like, your job really is meeting really good people. And I’ve had friends that have gone through divorce. And I’ve had friends that are going through difficult times. Right? I’ve called you on things even recently, right? Yeah. And you’re you’re guiding you’re all it’s almost like we’re principally aligned in some ways, right? Pretty much your your guiding principle is, hey, I want to do right by my clients. But there’s a right way to do it. Right. And it’s not and it’s not to gouge it’s not to it’s not to gouge the client to destroy their life. So you can go make a bunch of money? 

Mark Scroggins  

No. I mean, I’m a big believer in you do things the right way and the rewards that you will receive are many and yeah, good. Inversely, as part of that, I believe the opposite is true. I believe that, you know, to those who are given much, much as expected, and so and, and not about being looked at me when I’m doing these things, so nobody out there knows the different stuff. That’s right. They don’t want to publicize it.

Roy Reis  

I know. So I should have brought it up. I should have brought up so let’s talk about so I know, tell me about back in the day.

Mark Scroggins  

So the way we were talking about how do we cope? How do we cope on some so there was a time when, you know, the way I coped was drinking, you know, and sort of drinking tamped down all the shit. And that’s a great word for it. Oh, shit, that was bothering me. I’d never I couldn’t maintain really a spiritual connection. I worked out like a fiend. But it wasn’t enough. Nothing was enough. I mean, so it was, I’ve referred to it as trying to feel, you know, this god sized hole that was in the middle of me, and I don’t want to, you know, I don’t want to, I am not here to shove my views down anybody’s throat but at a certain point, that didn’t work. And so, you know, it became a problem, I quit, I was lucky enough that I was able to, you know, to get sober and to stay sober for a significant amount of amount of time. And, you know, and there were some hiccups actually different times and you know, and luckily, I’m sitting here, six and a half years over this time, which is this is great, but the one thing that I have done is put different things in place. So I’m, you know, all of these different Things are built around increasing my spiritual life. Yeah. So you know, I’m involved in a 12 step fellowship I am, you know, I use a therapist. Occasionally I’d really go in quarterly. And unless I’ve got in got some firm, I go in quarterly for what I will call a mental health checkup. Yeah. I love that. And if things are getting hard, you know, it might pick up a little bit. Yeah. And, and then I am involved. You know, I use prayer and meditation. And those are the things that align me. So that I, you know, that I’m not a bigger asshole than I can be. 

Roy Reis  

Look, like, I was saying, there’s, I couldn’t, I always felt like I had to perform to feel loved. Right. And then if you don’t do things, right, there’s shame. Right? And not guilt, like guilt and shame are different. Like people don’t realize that guilt and shame are different if you go back to the beginning, right? So I’m a Christian. If you look at Adam and Eve, when they were first made, the Bible says that they were naked and unashamed. Right? And then they then they commit a sin. And then they another and then they’re like, Oh, they’re trying to cover they’re like, trying to cover up with a leaf. Right. And God still Gods still shows up in their life. Right? And how many times in my life have I been? Have I not done the right thing? And I’m exposed. Right? Right. And even even if I’m not exposed for the thing that I did wrong, I feel guilty, right? I’m trying to cover up I’m trying to run forgot, run from God. And I’m either trying you either try to perform. You can you can find it in performance. You can stop biting insects, you can find drugs, you can find it in alcohol, absolutely. Like in all, all you’re trying to do is fill some void. That’s right. And so there was a there’s a verse in the Bible. It’s in Romans five, okay. And it talks about like, why do you go through difficult times, right, it says, it says that basically going through difficult times, I’m going to paraphrase the very beginning of going through difficult times, test you, which develops character, which then develops strength, which then develops hope, which does not put you to shame. And I read that word shame. And I was like, well, that’s interesting. And then it says, I will pour my spirit into you, right? Talking about spiritual. And if you ever walk into a church, you hear marriage things people talk about the fruits of the Spirit. Sometimes you’ll see it love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self control. What’s the opposite of that? anxiousness. Angry, jealousy. I mean, why is the person cheering about the spring break? They’re just jealous. They’re just insecure, right?

Mark Scroggins  

That’s absolutely right. I mean, so it’s crazy,

Roy Reis  

Right? Like, it all comes down to two things. You’re either you’re either a really prideful, yeah. Which that’s wrong, right? Are two you’re really insecure. Which that’s wrong. Like, and you’re all if you’re always operating from Pride and insecurity, right. And I can’t speak just kind of like you write your spiritual, how you felt this empty void. And I felt a void, kind of during COVID, where I’ve read the Bible forever. And it was like, I read that and it’s like, he jumped off the page. And he was like, Whoa, like, because you’ve talked about, you’ve been looking at like organized religion, and it’s funny, like, how many times is the Bible like in the Bible? Are they actually not like some of the churches all the way like the the end of Revelation three or seven? I’m not a theologian. I’m a real estate guy. But like, it literally is like telling the church Hey, you think you’re doing all the right things, but you’re not right. Because we’re all broken and fallen people.

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah. And I I agree. And that is, you know, that is what has been a difference. It’s kind of like, you know, look, Nobody enjoys a good Bare Knuckle brawl in the courtroom. Yeah, more than me. But a hammer is not the only tool to use you know, one of the things that I pride myself on and pride our firm on is really thinking outside of the box and trying to come up with unique solutions for complex people. And you know, where they’ve got a lot of assets or they’ve got a lot of problems and so we’re trying to help them fix a very difficult situation in the best way possible. And one of the a good Bare Knuckle brawl, should be where the lawyers are fighting it out, but it’s not personal. Okay. It’s just we can walk out at the end of the day and the same used to be in shared beer hell, I’ll go have one of my flavored waters or whatever. Someone else will have a beer or some other cocktail and I’m fine with that. But there is something that is different today with some of those that are out there that want to they cross over the line of ethics and become on ethical in their pursuit of a win, and it’s where they are doing things that are unethical, and I would even say unlawful, and I wish more courts would hold them in contempt.

Roy Reis  

So what are they doing? Going back to the nail and the hammer? I say this all the time, every everybody thinks to every problem or an in negotiation, I’m going to hammer it. Well guess what? What’s on the other end? There’s another end and a negotiation. And if it’s a screw, and you’re trying to hit it with a hammer, guess what? Yeah, does nothing it does, it does nothing. In fact, you’re, you’re probably going to be the one that gets screwed in the negotiation. That’s right, right. So like, be careful, if you’re trying to hit a hammer. If you’re trying to hit a screw with a hammer, you’re the one that’s getting screwed. And then you’re, like, look, look at the parts. And the other thing is, is, you know, these things are, these things are really complex. Yeah, right. Like, even in our negotiations, it’s complex. It’s not just, Hey, give me one thing. It’s there’s so many factors that go into what we do. Just like there’s so many factors that go into what you do. But when you’re doing it, like you in our negotiations, you handle it very classy and calm and smooth. Talk to me about like, how do you keep I asked you that, hey, how do you how do you keep your temperament? And by the way, you’re the one writing the check for the rent, not me. And I’m, you’re helping me five years ago with this, and I’ve been in the business for like, you know, 12 years at that point. So it’s not like I was some young person that had never done it. I’ve done a couple 100 leases, but I was just blown away by your comfort in negotiations.

Mark Scroggins  

Well, thank you. You know, that’s, I think it is it is learn just like everything in life. So, you know, I couldn’t stand when Jason Garrett was the coach of the Cowboys, because I got so damn tired of here and trust the process. He just requires a process Exactly. 

Roy Reis  

Yeah. By the way, Nick Saban has to trust the process. And his works, though.

Mark Scroggins  

And that’s the fundamental difference. So like, right now, you know, you cut me I bleed burnt orange. You know, I think Steve Sarkeesian might be one of the best recruiters that have ever seen. I’m not convinced that he can coach. Okay, so that being said, I will trust the process, when that starts turning into wins, can you but it’s a whole thing when we talk about in family law, okay, or when you talk about anything in life, of trusting the process. So first, if you are relying on someone else’s expertise, to guide you through or shepherd you through the process, you need to trust them and let them do their job. So I hired you because I thought you were the proper commercial real estate person to shepherd me through the process of taking my business to the next level with the facilities that we were going to operate out of when a client hires me to shepherd them through the divorce process, or a child custody matter. It is about let me do my job. And trust what I tell you, is going to benefit you in the long run. If you hire a lawyer, and you do not follow what their direction is, why hire a lawyer in the first place. It’s good law, okay, because all you are doing is wasting your money. And then what happens is, if you hire a lawyer like me, and you continue to disregard my advice, and you continue by doing that placed me into difficult positions, I’m going to fire you as a client. Yeah, because I don’t need it. 

Roy Reis  

Hold on, they’re losing their spouse and their attorney?

Mark Scroggins  

It’s like go find someone.

Roy Reis  

It’s not good for these people. 

Mark Scroggins  

They need to add that’s the point. 

Roy Reis  

That’s crazy. Yeah.

Mark Scroggins  

It’s like, you know, if you tell me and you did about bout some of we don’t really want to be in this building, because the people that own the building are completely out of touch with reality. Yeah. Okay. So let’s just move along, because it just doesn’t make sense. Yeah. It’s the same thing here. If you’re not going to let me do my job I do and have been doing for coming up on 30 years, as compared to what the hell you’ve Googled on the internet. Fucking hire me hire me. I mean, it’s, I’m not the guy for you. Yeah. And I don’t have now life is too short. And that’s a big difference is, as you get this experience, I think we learn as professionals don’t bang your head against the wall to try to make someone see the light. If they don’t want to see the light. They don’t want to see the light. There’s nothing that you can do. It’s the old thing of, you know, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. It’s the same thing.

Roy Reis  

So tell me talk to me about your favorite part. Right? Is it is it the negotiation? Is it the beginning? Is it the like? People are always surprised on the real estate side. People say a lot better closing is really happy for you Like, right ideal closes, I was like no, actually, it’s, it’s, it makes me sad, I kind of get depressed. Because the clients I work with, I really enjoy working with them. And for sometimes I may not be working with them on a daily basis for five or seven or 10 years or maybe ever right. So what’s what is your favorite part of the process?

Mark Scroggins  

That’s a really good question. So it’s a combination. Generally, I really love to see the transformation that a client goes through from beginning to end. Because typically, they have transformed. So one of the you know, we’re very different in the way we practice. I’ve got a litigation consultant on board, who is a licensed professional counselor that assists with putting our people with the right therapists or different experts that we need and things like that, that plays a really unique, a unique role. So when, when a client to truly follows our direction, and listens to what we are espousing and assists in that process. I see them transform from the broken soul that they are, who had very little hope, to someone who is ready to walk into and oftentimes celebrate their new life. Now, when I say celebrate their new life, that doesn’t mean that sadness, isn’t there. Yeah. It doesn’t mean that there might not be some regret. But it means that they have completely grasped what I had been telling them or what we collectively My firm has been telling them. They have availed themselves of that knowledge base and the process, and they are walking, walking out, knowing that they have hope now and that they see, not only is there light at the end of the tunnel, but that light just expands as they walk out into it as they exit the tunnel.

Roy Reis  

Yeah, it’s kind of funny, right? Hope your favorite thing is seeing the hope. It’s kind of what when I was saying when I was going through a tough time, right? It’s like, Alright, hold on. Why am I going through a tough time? Right? There’s a reason it’s sharpening the perseverance. And then you have hope, right? And you’re You have no shame. Right? And you’re filled in, you’re different. So can you relate? By the way, I think you’re supposed to be interviewing me, but I’m completely interviewing you. I’m sorry. Oh, that’s all right. So hold on. So can you relate to these people because of what you’ve been through?

Mark Scroggins  

Absolutely. So you know, my belief in what causes shame, okay, is when we are continuing to do an action that we know is wrong, and that we feel guilty about. Okay. Okay. So the perfect example I use for me, is, before I could get sober, I found myself drinking when I didn’t want to drink. Okay, yeah, it’s just like the man or woman who’s having an affair that knows it’s wrong, but keeps going back continues to go back because of the pleasure of it. Okay. So we’re just the bond, if you want to, if you want to receive a steam, do a steam bubble things. Yeah, right. Okay. So it’s when you know, you’re doing something that is wrong based on whatever your own moral compasses.

Roy Reis  

Yeah. Okay, try and understand my compass is probably a little bit different than others. And yours is right. You know, and I’m also no judgement.

Mark Scroggins  

I’m here to help someone and that’s it. But it’s, you know, when you can really when that person can grab a hold of, look, I did some stuff in the past that I’m, I feel guilty for, or I feel ashamed for, but they have done everything that they could to correct the situation. And a lot of the time. That’s nothing. That’s just don’t continue the same behavior. Yeah. Right. And so letting go of that, and moving on. So here’s a, here’s an example of where I see this all the time. I will see men or women who have an addiction issue, whether it be alcohol, drugs, sex, money, gambling, whatever, yeah, that they feel so much shame for what the past behavior was. And typically, it’s at the beginning of when they’re trying to take those first steps to get well get recovered, whether, you know, however, they’re doing that, if they’re, you know, going into a 12 step step program, if they’re going to a therapist, if they’re seeing a psychologist, if they’re seeing a psychiatrist, you know, whatever. Yeah, okay. And they feel so guilty that they want to give the farm Why? Because there is no amount of money, you can pay the other party to get rid of that shame. And what is on the other side of that is six months down the road. They have buyer’s remorse. Why the hell didn’t I do this? And why didn’t you keep me from doing this? Because it’s your deal, man, I tried to talk to you out of it and told you this is exactly how he’d feel. Yeah, I don’t care. This is what I want to do. Well, that’s your decision to make. Okay, but understand, you’re gonna sign something that says, This is against legal advice, you know, because there’s nothing that you can do to do in that regard. So what do I tell clients that I see in that situation is, I want you to talk to this person, I want you to talk to that person. You know, I want you to get a hold on this and understand what I’m telling you is what my experience has been if you still choose to go down that road. That’s up to you. Yeah. But so are the implications.

Roy Reis  

Yeah, you know, you know, I think we, we’ve talked before, but I think the number one thing that people ultimately want is freedom. Yeah. Right. And when we say freedom, like why do people want to come to America freedom, right, but too many times when we’re in bondage to drinking or sex or money or gambling? Right? Hopefully, not all of those, which a lot of times they are just going to Las Vegas. It’s full of them. Yeah. Yep. What’s funny is something that starts out so great, can literally destroy somebody’s life. Right? A drink, hey, grab a drink with this. It’s casual. Hey, Mark, what? Right, right. And then next thing you know, it’s, you know, two o’clock and you’re supposed to be working and that person is going to the bar, right? They don’t want they don’t want to like they don’t want to go to the bar. They don’t. We talked about that prostitution ring. Those those guys that got busted, which by the way, I’m glad because there’s nothing worse than human trafficking and all the stuff that we’ve seen there, right. But man, like, I tell you, what I bet you for a lot of those men is awful is that was it’s probably pretty freeing for somebody to actually know what their life has been like, because there’s no way that was the first time maybe it was, you know what I mean? But I’m like, I feel like we live in a society where we’re going back to that veneer though that man a lot of people’s lives are messy, and a lot of people need help. And I think God gave us people to help us, right. God gave us counselors, God gave us psychiatrists, God gave us psychologists. Right. And if they’re the right ones, then you should seek them. Right. It’s no different. Because you’re sick. You’re there’s a sickness, there’s something there. Right. I’m not saying you know, yeah,

Mark Scroggins  

I think I think all the things that you just mentioned are, you know, stem from a, a form of spiritual ailment or spiritual sickness. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because it’s like, it’s what you’re using to try to make yourself feel better. Yeah, in the moment, the problem is that, you know, that immediate release that you get, doesn’t last. So I think there’s a certain power a certain freedom that you talked about when it’s like the gig is up distro. It’s like, okay, now now, I’m an open book. Now. I’m transparent now,

Roy Reis  

You’ll realize I’m all I’m actually jacked up. 

Mark Scroggins  

Right. Exactly. 

Roy Reis  

Hey, guess what, like, that was freeing for me. It’s just to be able to like, Yeah, guess what, I’ve got anxiety at times. And and this sounds weird. It’s like just saying that I was like, an anxiety about what do you everything why I don’t know the way I was raised the way I thought, the fear the fear of never having enough you always have to perform you like, like on your DNA. What’s Well, yeah, what’s in your DNA? Yeah. And I got to the point where I’m, it’s like, Man, I can’t I can’t do this anymore. Like, right, you get to 38 years old at the time, right? Raised in talked about church raised in the church done the right thing. And it was funny, I had a guy pick up a Bible this so my buddy, who’s I call my spiritual guru. Yeah. Former abs of steel, right buns of steel fitness model. You see him on ESPN back in the day. And he he runs a ministry where he helps people. But here he was living a life of basically a veneer. Yeah, he looked perfect on the outside, but was a mess on the inside. Yeah. And how many times people everyone I know would trade places with that guy in a second with the way that he looked. And the attraction that he drew, but deep down, there was a void, right? And I remember he picked up and he then became a minister, which is funny of all things. And he picked up the Bible. And I even said, well go to church. And he goes, alright, one of these days, you’re gonna read this thing, and you’re gonna believe what it says about you. And I was like, Whoa, and I literally just started reading the Bible, because organized religion. By the way, I go to a big church. I love my big church. But guess what? churches? Churches are not the solution. Right? I believe the answers are in the Bible. A And for me, right? I can’t speak for everybody. But for me, once I started reading it, like I read in Genesis about the shame, it’s like, Man, I can relate to that. Like, I’ve done things I’m not proud of, or things that I don’t want to do. And then I was reading like the fruits of the spirit. It’s like, man, what do I really want? No matter how much money I make, it’ll never be enough. It won’t give me peace. No matter no matter how nice I am, how hard I try. There’s always going to be things that don’t go your way. Right, like, look at the economy we’re in right now. What if you just had your money with Silicon Valley Bank? I don’t know the latest. Maybe the government’s gonna block it. But But I’m saying like it could all but always that fear of no matter what I do, could something happen where all this goes up in smoke, right? Yeah. And I had no, I truly had no peace in my life. And it wasn’t till I was like, I just kind of turned it over to a higher power. Yeah, right. Yep. It was like, Okay, I can’t do it myself. And then reading Romans five, and I was just like, okay, he pour, he pours it in. And I think about like a cup and a, like, a water pitcher. And literally, I’m an I’m a, I was a completely empty vessel at like rock bottom. And there was nothing I could do to pull myself. I couldn’t fill up my bottle anymore, right? I couldn’t pull myself up. It was like, All right, fill me up. Right prayer. Meditation, meditating on God’s word, studying God’s word. That changed, right? That was for me, but it is crazy. I meet so many people, and they’re trying to find it in everything else. 

Mark Scroggins  

See, and that’s one of the one of the things that I that I enjoy about our relationship is I think you and I are in the end seeking the same thing. Yeah, but come about it. With different paths, different paths, and slightly different solutions. Yeah. You know, so. And I think that those opportunities are out there. Yeah. You know, so it’s, it’s an interesting time, that’s for sure. It is in media is a whole different thing with it’s, you know, take a look at this picture. And all of a sudden, you’re comparing your insides to other people’s outsides. And, you know, so realistic.

Roy Reis  

So this is really interesting. I had interns one time and they said, Hey, we want instant gratification. And, and when I’m hearing instant gratification, I’m thinking they want $100,000 A year and the newest Mercedes, right, right. And they said, no, no, we want it faster than that. What we want is when we post a picture, we went over 100 likes in 90 seconds. And I was like, oh, that’s the instinct. Like, I didn’t even understand Instagram edification, because I’m relaying it. To my I was 35 at the time to my 35 year old self, right? They’re doing it to their 2122 year old sales. And it’s like we live in a world that our instant gratification is not even in this year, this month, but it’s literally within this minute. It’s scary.

Mark Scroggins  

Yeah, there’s some interesting times. That’s for sure. So Roy, thank you very much for joining me today.

Roy Reis  

Thanks for having me. You bet. Thanks for letting me share my story. You bet.

Mark Scroggins  

It’s been a lot of fun and everybody out there. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the reclamation transformation. And remember, change starts with you so don’t forget to leave your

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*Mark L. Scroggins is *board-certified in family law by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization. Unless otherwise noted, other attorneys are not *board-certified.

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